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unmerged(7276)

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Jan 12, 2002
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We all debate continuously through different threads how we think the game should be played. We make rules, guidelines; talk of gamey, cheating and other such things all the time. Probably half of the posts on the forum are really a debate on how you think the game should be played.

This thread is here to sum up the big picture of what the game means to you. You can probably categorise players roughly into certain camps. Economists, warmongerers, diplomats etc though the truth is a lot more complex. All players are unique as people are and im interested to here from everyone. In one of my ‘debates’ With Daniel he expressed his view that I am a conservititive. Although I wouldn’t agree with this the fact that im a bit of an old timer (though not the oldest by far ) does by definition mean I have the advantages and disadvantages of experience. New players have perhaps the advantage of a fresh outlook?

Anyway I will start with my view of an ‘ideal EU game’

First of all im fundamentally against treating country’s a certain way because you know the player. For example trusting that a player will never break an agreement/will break an agreement because of past actions. Another example would be dowing weaker players because you know you can win. This is idealism at its extreme of course as its impossible to simply forget who you are playing. I don’t claim innocence in this respect.

Ill take the example of my current BNW game. I am france and im playing alongside Eskimo who plays England. I don’t know him that well and am not familiar with his style. He seems to me an ideal type of player as he is aggressive but also reasonable etc. He has recently shown interest in peace and perhaps an alliance with me though im not sure I cant trust him. If there was an alliance it would be an uneasy alliance. This unknown factor means that even if we do ally we will both have to check that neither becomes too powerful. As in real life both trust and friendships were finite.

Imagine a game where all players were anonymous. There was some contact on icq however names would simply come under as france, England etc. In this case you would only be able to judge nations on actions within that game. Also imagine that the environment had more incentive to be competitive. Lets say it was an official paradox league. There wernt vps however the whole thing was documented and set on a perm record. This is something like my ideal game. Friendly but uneasy. Always watching your back though gangbangs would be rare. Wars would be frequent but not too harsh. RP would be there also but not too strict.
 
Cheech,

That anonymity idea has been discussed before. At least, I've talked about it with Slargos, Drake and probably others, back when there was a big furor over player reputations, elitism, gangings, etc., and some of us weren't being allowed to play the countries we wanted.

I hadn't thought about it in a long time, but I think it's excellent. There would have to be a GM who knew the real identities of the players (perhaps one who didn't actually play the game at all) in order to assign countries and deal with potential problems. And we might need to create alternate forum names (we'd need BiB's permission for this) and ICQ accounts to allow for inter-session diplomacy, although it could be interesting not to have any of that either.

Players would discuss things as usual during the week, in the thread, but without having any idea who was actually playing which country. In vnet, we'd all be France or Louis XIV, England or Elizabeth, etc. Absolutely no breeching the wall under any circumstances.

The major problems I see are:

1. Subs. Of course, if England is missing or drops or whatever, it becomes difficult to arrange a sub while still maintaining secrecy. It'd have to be done through the GM and very carefully, or the sub couldn't be told who he was subbing, just the country name, and the player couldn't thank him for it on the boards or by ICQ.

2. The GM. Somebody would have to do the edits, enforce the rules, keep track of everyone for each session and all the other normal GM things while not actually playing. This can be tedious.

3. Inter-session communication, as mentioned above. This is problem the biggest problem.

4. Cheating. Players who tell each other what their countries are. If the group is well-established and trustworthy, though, I don't worry to much about this.

5. Inadvertantly letting an identity slip. This could be an honest mistake in making a reference or a joke or a complaint in the thread or over ICQ, or it could simply be that many of us have played together an awful lot and can recognize each other's styles. I'd venture to guess most everybody who's been around for more than a month can recognize me immediately by the way I write. Or John by the way he DOWs everybody around him. Or Drake by his syntax.

But I don't see any of those problems as strictly unmanageable. And I think the game would benefit greatly with this system, and it opens up the potential for a victory condition (guessing who plays what at the end-there's a very dirty variation of this game most are probably familiar with :D) and variations, like a DU version where the GM plays musical chairs with the players. But of course, the players have no idea who winds up where when the music stops. :D

All in all, an idea well worth considering.
 
Well i suck as GM but if someone has the skill and ambition to make it happen then count me in.

I never really considered this practical though. I was just making a point.
 
cheech said:
First of all im fundamentally against treating country’s a certain way because you know the player. For example trusting that a player will never break an agreement/will break an agreement because of past actions. Another example would be dowing weaker players because you know you can win. This is idealism at its extreme of course as its impossible to simply forget who you are playing. I don’t claim innocence in this respect.

Indeed, this is the biggest flaw of playing eu2 in MP, imo. I hate eternal alliance that comes with this.

And people that always attack weaker nation : booooooring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
cheech said:
With Daniel he expressed his view that I am a conservititive. Although I wouldn’t agree with this the fact that im a bit of an old timer (though not the oldest by far ) does by definition mean I have the advantages and disadvantages of experience. New players have perhaps the advantage of a fresh outlook?
Well i think im about as conservative as they get.
I didnt like it when it got easier to DL the save ingame, since i thought it was smoother to pass it around on ICQ.
I didnt like it when you could no longer write in colours and all that, though i think everyone misses that :(.
I didnt like it when you could be more than 9 players in a game since i thought it just became too cluttered. As a result, i didnt like the Tsunami until it had played about three quarters through.
I didnt like it when the new maps came about since i thought the new provinces destroyed the feel of the game.

Thing is, ive changed my mind about all that (except the coloured messages, damn you Johan!) and at the moment my only thought about how a game should be played is with as little rules as possible and nothing more.
 
Hi there! I´m fanaticaly "Pro" concerning this idea!
I think it is a very good one indeed.....and should it be able to be implemented....I would be very much willing to assist and especially to participate! :D
 
HolisticGod said:
And we might need to create alternate forum names (we'd need BiB's permission for this) and ICQ accounts to allow for inter-session diplomacy, although it could be interesting not to have any of that either.

OR, we could do inter-session communication via Slargos.se and keep it strictly to forum. No ICQ chatting.

1. Subs. Of course, if England is missing or drops or whatever, it becomes difficult to arrange a sub while still maintaining secrecy. It'd have to be done through the GM and very carefully, or the sub couldn't be told who he was subbing, just the country name, and the player couldn't thank him for it on the boards or by ICQ.

If the player announces his need for a sub under his assumed identity on slargos.se, I don't think this will be a problem.

2. The GM. Somebody would have to do the edits, enforce the rules, keep track of everyone for each session and all the other normal GM things while not actually playing. This can be tedious.

I think the GM would have to know, regardless. Can't keep a GM interested if they're not playing.

3. Inter-session communication, as mentioned above. This is problem the biggest problem.

Not if handled on the forum only. Could make for some interesting roleplay with embassies and the like, as much for communication as for show.

4. Cheating. Players who tell each other what their countries are. If the group is well-established and trustworthy, though, I don't worry to much about this.

I doubt it would be a problem.

Well, maybe with a couple of players *coughdildcough* ;)

5. Inadvertantly letting an identity slip. This could be an honest mistake in making a reference or a joke or a complaint in the thread or over ICQ, or it could simply be that many of us have played together an awful lot and can recognize each other's styles. I'd venture to guess most everybody who's been around for more than a month can recognize me immediately by the way I write. Or John by the way he DOWs everybody around him. Or Drake by his syntax.

This, I believe, is the biggest hurdle.

Some of our fellow players are very idiosyncratic in their language. It's not hard to note who Tonz is with his love of special smilies and russo-english. :D

All in all, an idea well worth considering.

Fo sho.
 
Sluthost,

Yeah, using slargos.se would be ideal. And it'd finally force you to make me an admin, as I'd probably be GMing. ;)

Language is one of the major problems. I don't think I'd be hard to pick out, nor Drake, Tonio, Daniel and a few others who're pretty distinctive. One option is using the DU system to rotate players, so that as soon as you figure out who's in a certain spot he may be gone. Another is to make a conscious effort, on all parts, to disguise oneself.

At any rate, I just discussed the Sunday slot with FAL, who currently holds it for his DU, which'll be over in a month. He's willing to pass it to me in honor of your triumphant (ahem-one triumph at least, after all these years) return, probably because it and the rebirth of DU were originally mine. :D

I'd be happy to use it to try out this idea, particularly with slargos.se at our disposal.
 
For what it is worth:

I would not mind being the GM in a game in which I am not an active participant. In the EU2 sense, this probably means becoming something innocuous like a one-province state that no one is allowed to attack stuck off somewhere without any neighboring countries, which has knowledge of the whole world and an RM with each human nation. Kinda like running chess tournaments, which I used to do in my younger days.

Of course, the scheduling has to be conducive to my ability to be present. And I would be able to be trusted never to let the true participants' identities known. :)


I'll get back with a response to the OP later. I'd suggest that the concept of the anonymous game should get its own thread. :)
 
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DSY,

I'm definitely starting an anonymous game after Diplomacy Universalis ends, using roughly the same slot (and certainly on Sundays). It'll be on the new map, but other details will need to be worked out.

I'll post a planning thread for it when I've come up with a suitable name. I'm thinking Dismemberment Before Defeat, but I need to give it a little more thought. ;)

One month ought to be sufficient time to work out rules, edits, the roster and some way to conceal identities throughout the game.
 
Aye! The whole concept sounds utterly fascinating to me. An anonymous game would be true Realpolitik without the usual clash of egos.
 
i bet that after a while you find out who certain players are especially if you play often with those players
 
the only way i can really think of reducing the risk of finding out is trying to stay in character. Be very careful about what you write OOG and if you do work out dont tell....
 
Idea about the switching rule (a subrule that is) :After a big defeat (determined by the GM), there should be an option given to the winner(s) to actually kill (or exile) the actual ruler of the country. Makes things more dynamics. So, if a country is really powerful and threatening, a coalition might do the same as they did to Napoleon.

Imo, this would be quite funny. Imagine being the one exiled? :D
 
balinus said:
Idea about the switching rule (a subrule that is) :After a big defeat (determined by the GM), there should be an option given to the winner(s) to actually kill (or exile) the actual ruler of the country. Makes things more dynamics. So, if a country is really powerful and threatening, a coalition might do the same as they did to Napoleon.

Imo, this would be quite funny. Imagine being the one exiled? :D

Aye, but what would happen to the exiled player? Would the campaign end for him? And if so, how will we be able to keep the campaign going, with players constantly having to quit?
Or have I misunderstood you? Would this rule only aply in very, very extreme circumstances?
 
Games where players are anononymous? Interesting idea in theory, but I doubt you can find a full roster of players with enough willpower not to spill who they are playing to someone else.
 
Hive said:
Games where players are anononymous? Interesting idea in theory, but I doubt you can find a full roster of players with enough willpower not to spill who they are playing to someone else.

You could at least let us try ;)