Europe vs ROTW

[Incompetent]

As you all know, this is a mod for Europa Universalis II. But that doesn't mean we have to make Europe the master of everything. In fact, we're going to have quite a few ROTW powers. But how strong should they be relative to Europe? How much attention do we devote to them?

There are several aspects to this:

Powers: The Abe ideal for Europe seems to be lots of Venice-sized powers (economically speaking). But how big do we want our powers to be elsewhere, and how much space do we want to leave between the powers, either empty or inhabited by minors?

Colonisation: Europe in Abe is chock-full of colonial powers, far more than in vanilla. Should the ROTW have lots of colonisers as well? How rapidly and extensively should these countries be colonising, and from what date?

Technology: At the moment, Europe is mostly Latin and Orthodox, while much of Asia is China (40% slower than Latin IIRC). This seems rather unfair, given the history of technological development in Persia, India, China and the Arab world compared to Europe prior to 1419. Why did Asia stagnate relative to Europe in later centuries, and would the same happen in an Aberrated history?

It's fair enough that the Americas and sub-Saharan Africa suffer technologically, as these were much more isolated, and historically never really kept pace with the rest of the world. But how bad should things start, and how much should they get better if they become less isolated?

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Technology: At the moment, Europe is mostly Latin and Orthodox, while much of Asia is China (40% slower than Latin IIRC). This seems rather unfair, given the history of technological development in Persia, India, China and the Arab world compared to Europe prior to 1419. Why did Asia stagnate relative to Europe in later centuries, and would the same happen in an Aberrated history?

In terms of China, this 40% reduction is probably fair. Large hegemonous states in isolation progress slower than smaller states in fierce competition with each other.

However, if we ever do Aberrate China, and split it into smaller nations, then, yes, Chinese technology could work at the same rate as Latin. What we really need is to make the technology speed proportional to the number of nations of a particular technology group. Currently this is coded into the Neighbourhood Bonus penalty, so maybe it's a case of tweaking that...

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Why did Asia stagnate relative to Europe in later centuries, and would the same happen in an Aberrated history?

Read "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Perhaps we should consider ccelerating the China group - though not to equality with Latin - and start all of the applicable countries off higher? (Say, a level of trade and infra, maybe more than one in land and naval?)

This would semi-accurately reflect the historic lead they had in 1419 while still allowing the Europeans to pass them up (it would just happen later).

 

[unmerged(33565)]

Here was my plan for India back when I was working on it full time...

1) Celyon can go two different directions, land or sea. It starts off in Muslim, and if it goes land it stays there for most of the game. If it goes sea, it turns into dynamic colonial and trading state that can gain ortidox tech group.

2) The northern Hundu states start muslim tech, but once they are united and have contact with Europeans, have a oppertunity to jump up too. However, it will be costly, with large payments and mading some seceding of provances.

I was thinking about starting both in orth and then haveing them have a chance to drop later, but desided to start them low and make them earn the bumb up.

 

[MattyG]

All,

Clearly, we all want something more than the current Aberration set-up.

Coloniuzation needs to be pulled back a little (more on this in another thread) and the New World I am writing for Aberration assists this by making something more challenging and interesting out of the central-american section. That, and adding in the Smallpox events so that captured provinces don't give their new owners sudden cities of 20 000 catholics.

In the new New World, Anasazi (formerly Navajo) commence in the China techgroup and can move into Muslim. Maya commence exotic, and can move through China to Muslim and into Orthodox, though not until the 1700s.
Zaptotec and Aztec can get as far as Muslim as well, but later in the game.

So, as you can see, tech advancement is becomming more complex already. This won't stop any of these countries from becomming crushed by a determined European power, but it will make the Caribbean region less of a walk-over colonization gimme in a virtual terra nulius.

And they are interesting countries to play, as well!

 

[loki1232]

As you all know, this is a mod for Europa Universalis II. But that doesn't mean we have to make Europe the master of everything. In fact, we're going to have quite a few ROTW powers. But how strong should they be relative to Europe? How much attention do we devote to them?

There are several aspects to this:

1. Powers: The Abe ideal for Europe seems to be lots of Venice-sized powers (economically speaking). But how big do we want our powers to be elsewhere, and how much space do we want to leave between the powers, either empty or inhabited by minors?

2. Colonisation: Europe in Abe is chock-full of colonial powers, far more than in vanilla. Should the ROTW have lots of colonisers as well? How rapidly and extensively should these countries be colonising, and from what date?

3. Technology: At the moment, Europe is mostly Latin and Orthodox, while much of Asia is China (40% slower than Latin IIRC). This seems rather unfair, given the history of technological development in Persia, India, China and the Arab world compared to Europe prior to 1419. Why did Asia stagnate relative to Europe in later centuries, and would the same happen in an Aberrated history?

It's fair enough that the Americas and sub-Saharan Africa suffer technologically, as these were much more isolated, and historically never really kept pace with the rest of the world. But how bad should things start, and how much should they get better if they become less isolated?

1. I think that Coalitions are better than large nations. Like a bunch of 2 province nations all vassals of and in an alliance with a 7 province nation.

2. I think that the ROTW should do a lot of colonizing. Like california and that whole coast should be taken by some asian power. India will colonize some of the african coast. Also the powers in Indo-China should colonize the southern pacific islands.

3. I personally think that everyone should have the same tech type. I found that the different tech types was just one way of the Pre-determinism in EU II. Tech types should instead be used as a focus of your country. Civil war and revolts should reduce your tech type. Being at war should increase your tech type. Great projects like the wonders in the wonder thread should give you a 20 tech type boost. Things like that.

The way i see it, there are many different paths the relationship between Europe and the ROTW can go.
a) Europe dominates.
b) The powers in the Americas build strong kingdoms and Eruope only colonizes the open places.
c) The muslims invade Europe.
d) The asians colonize much of the world
e) The rest of the world invades Europe. In fact, i think that there should be a tartar nation that invades Russia (taken from Phillip Pullman's Golden Compass series) at some point.

 

[MattyG]

1. I think that Coalitions are better than large nations. Like a bunch of 2 province nations all vassals of and in an alliance with a 7 province nation.

2. I think that the ROTW should do a lot of colonizing. Like california and that whole coast should be taken by some asian power. India will colonize some of the african coast. Also the powers in Indo-China should colonize the southern pacific islands.

This has long been the plan but no-one has stpeed up to the plate to begin rebuilding China et al.

3. I personally think that everyone should have the same tech type. I found that the different tech types was just one way of the Pre-determinism in EU II. Tech types should instead be used as a focus of your country. Civil war and revolts should reduce your tech type. Being at war should increase your tech type. Great projects like the wonders in the wonder thread should give you a 20 tech type boost. Things like that.

Interesting. Sounds like a LOT of events. I don't agree that the Zulu ought to begin the game in the same tech group as Burgundy. Not at all. Interregnum purports to display an alternative history, but not something quite so radically. We don't reach back much further than about 1150 and I don't think that the RoTW gaining the same tech status as Europe and Asia Minor is plausible.

The way i see it, there are many different paths the relationship between Europe and the ROTW can go.
a) Europe dominates.

Vanilla/AGCEEP, and Interregnum to a lesser extent.

b) The powers in the Americas build strong kingdoms and Eruope only colonizes the open places.

More of a fantasy Mod, but the Maya and Dichali can face the Europeans down at present.

c) The muslims invade Europe.

More than one mod has been made with this premise.

d) The asians colonize much of the world

Sounds interesting. It would make a fun mod.

e) The rest of the world invades Europe. In fact, i think that there should be a tartar nation that invades Russia (taken from Phillip Pullman's Golden Compass series) at some point.

Just started reading those books. This kind of fantasy mod has been proposed and probably exists (there are a LOT of mods out there.


Interregnum cannot be all mods to all people. It's one slice of a very big pie of mods that run a spectrum from nudging history (AGCEEP) to pure fantasy mods. Interregnum has its focus set. It's interesting and its fun. I don't want to see the focus shift and become another mod. Better to simply start that other mod than try and radically rejig Interregnum.

 

[loki1232]

Okay. What if we put all of Europe as Orthodox tech, and that way we could have 20 years with latin tech be a reward for a wonder. That's not many events.

I think that the Major muslim powers should also be orthodox, the rest of the Muslims and the Major Asian powers should be Muslim, and the rest of the asians would be Far East. The african and american tribes would be exotic tech. Every nation should be able to rech at least muslim tech through events.

 

[MattyG]

Okay. What if we put all of Europe as Orthodox tech, and that way we could have 20 years with latin tech be a reward for a wonder. That's not many events.

So who determines which nations get wonders and when? Still sounds very deterministic.

However, I like the idea that no nation (or few nations) would begn the game in the latin tech group.

I think that the Major muslim powers should also be orthodox, the rest of the Muslims and the Major Asian powers should be Muslim, and the rest of the asians would be Far East. The african and american tribes would be exotic tech. Every nation should be able to rech at least muslim tech through events.

That's close to what it already is.

 

[unmerged(55521)]

This has long been the plan but no-one has stpeed up to the plate to begin rebuilding China et al.

I want to start offering events for cambodja/champa, china split states, ternate, al mujjadids as "great muslim barrier of mediterian", and muslim inca.

But about al mujaddids and central asia/gh/sibir there will be discussion with calipah about startegies...

But I need screenshot of cambodja and vjetnam region.

 

[unmerged(55521)]

However, I like the idea that no nation (or few nations) would begn the game in the latin tech group.

Agree. Cordoba deserves it historicaly and Eire becouse of looking to outside europe.
hanseate leage (and others) had those guilds which limited competition so it dosent deserve latin from this point...
Papal states could have limits in innovativness and tech culture but they could recieve technology from catholics as gift...

War destructions like trigered (if can) by war exaustion could turn lowering at some point but building universities and keeping innovativness oposite. But there is problem with inovativness in EU2. If you are coloniser you need narrowmindness becouse of colonists. If you are war country you need misionaries and stability becouse of different cultures and religions. So need of innovativness to keep good tech culture means blow to colonisation and rel con.

 

[MattyG]

But there is problem with inovativness in EU2. If you are coloniser you need narrowmindness becouse of colonists. If you are war country you need misionaries and stability becouse of different cultures and religions. So need of innovativness to keep good tech culture means blow to colonisation and rel con.

That is NOT a problem, but a deliberate design element that is entirely appropriate.

 

[loki1232]

So who determines which nations get wonders and when? Still sounds very deterministic.

Not that deterministic. Several ways around determinism.

1. Have each country get a random 20 years with the latin tech.
2. Have the tech advancing wonders be linked to provinces not just countries.
3. Well yeah, of course some countries will do better than others. We all know that Abe has some winners and some losers. Each of the powerful countries would get a wonder at some time, and the losers would still have a chance to build wonders in certain provinces.

 

[unmerged(55521)]

That is NOT a problem, but a deliberate design element that is entirely appropriate.

But this mean noone choose innovativness except for standing or conquering only the same religion provs.

 

[loki1232]

Nay. Innovativeness also increases your chances of getting free manufactories. And i like it just on principle.

 

[Incompetent]

a) Europe dominates.

IMO there are enough mods like this. In Interregnum, European powers could dominate, but we don't have to create conditions in which they must.

b) The powers in the Americas build strong kingdoms and Eruope only colonizes the open places.

The American powers are unlikely to carve out the whole hemisphere. But because there will be many colonisers, each of whom can colonise only a fraction as fast as vanilla England or Spain, the Americas will be a multicoloured mess of competing claims. Native American countries could well take advantage of this, as they'll be the ones with an established power base in the area, or they could be caught in the maelstrom - perhaps we need more events to encourage the natives to make alliances with some of the colonisers so they get more involved in the big land grab.

c) The muslims invade Europe.

The Muslim-Christian conflict is already pretty intense in Interregnum - I can think of at least 5 areas where Muslims and Christians can have overlapping cores to fight over, and that's not counting the whole colonial game, and the competition to convert and/or conquer the Pagans. Neither side will take the other over completely, but in a typical game it's likely the frontier between Christianity and Islam will shift several times and in both directions.

d) The asians colonize much of the world

I'm all for this, as long as they don't colonise so much that they shut out all European contact. In the case of Indonesia, we may need to rethink what we mean by colonisation in the first place.

e) The rest of the world invades Europe. In fact, i think that there should be a tartar nation that invades Russia (taken from Phillip Pullman's Golden Compass series) at some point.

To make this a realistic prospect we'd have to give the ROTW masses of cores, cultures etc in Europe, or empty Europe's provinces completely and leave it to the natives. Not really the Interregnum way of doing things, I suspect. I gather there's a 'Years of Rice and Salt' scenario out there somewhere, that ought to be more like what you describe.

Likewise, Africa and Asia aren't going to be completely overrun from outside. The Americas are exceptional because they really were massively behind the East technologically, hadn't been exposed to Old World diseases, and large part of the hemisphere were pretty sparsely populated. Even then, we'll probably have enough New World powers that most of the time at least one or two of them will survive.

 

[loki1232]

The American powers are unlikely to carve out the whole hemisphere. But because there will be many colonisers, each of whom can colonise only a fraction as fast as vanilla England or Spain, the Americas will be a multicoloured mess of competing claims. Native American countries could well take advantage of this, as they'll be the ones with an established power base in the area, or they could be caught in the maelstrom - perhaps we need more events to encourage the natives to make alliances with some of the colonisers so they get more involved in the big land grab.

Yeah, i remember my surprise when i saw the TO colonies in Brazil. The problem seems to be that the Americans have such low technology compared to the Europeans. We'll need many events to give them alliances and a chance of surviving.

The Muslim-Christian conflict is already pretty intense in Interregnum - I can think of at least 5 areas where Muslims and Christians can have overlapping cores to fight over, and that's not counting the whole colonial game, and the competition to convert and/or conquer the Pagans. Neither side will take the other over completely, but in a typical game it's likely the frontier between Christianity and Islam will shift several times and in both directions.

Yeah i know, but i think it would be a nice improvement if the Muslims also invaded the boot of Italy.

[/QUOTE]I'm all for this, as long as they don't colonise so much that they shut out all European contact. In the case of Indonesia, we may need to rethink what we mean by colonisation in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Like having it start with cites on it? I'd really like for Japan to colonize the western coast of America.

To make this a realistic prospect we'd have to give the ROTW masses of cores, cultures etc in Europe, or empty Europe's provinces completely and leave it to the natives. Not really the Interregnum way of doing things, I suspect. I gather there's a 'Years of Rice and Salt' scenario out there somewhere, that ought to be more like what you describe.

Likewise, Africa and Asia aren't going to be completely overrun from outside. The Americas are exceptional because they really were massively behind the East technologically, hadn't been exposed to Old World diseases, and large part of the hemisphere were pretty sparsely populated. Even then, we'll probably have enough New World powers that most of the time at least one or two of them will survive.

1. Well i was just thinking that it would be nice to have a tribal nation of asians up in siberia that could eventually get to Russia and fight the Ukrainians.
2. Yeah any player European can take over any american country. But just wait until I finish my VInland events.

 

[MattyG]

Two things on Islamic invasions of Europe:

1. Just do it

Play an Islamic country and invade. Don't sit back wondering if an event will come up for it. Just do it, and have a good time.

2. Almujadid Empire

Calipah has already begun to explore this avenue via the Almujadid Empire, a successor state to Tlemscen. The problem is that its a tough job for the ai to pull off, as they are more likely to collapse into Algeria, Tunis, Tripoli and the Baleares. I'd like to see it more likely that the Almujadid Empire can emerge. If it does, it goes for Malta, then Sicily and the plan was to give it eventually core on southern Italy (ai only, of course) to help direct its attacks there. But it requires considering more carefully the European response: it's rediculous to think that European countries would sit by while the heart of Catholicism comes under attack from Islam.

Matty

 

[unmerged(55521)]

Champa is living with latin chineese at north.
These after tech revolution chineese colonise indonesia (first ar Mallaca, Atjeh and Makassar, then add one chineese state (some kind chineese treaty of trodesillas) and then just before 1600 goes champa and all other chineese. Before that Chineese developed colonies on amerika west coast. There is Japan, too.
Korea and Manchu spend time on colonising east Siberia.
While at first Uzbeck spend time as Caliphate ally against Ilkhans, after Ukraine destroys Golden Horde, Uzbeck recieve reformer leader which unites them with Siberia. Their aim is to liberete muslims of GH and make Volga as their western border. When they become strong they split. From them secedes Kazkahs, which would be more trade, colonisation and urban oriented norther "uzbecks" ("wood uzbecks" as oposite "steppe (or desert) uzbecks"). This Kazakh state is vasal of Uzbeck (Uzbeck protects them from outside) and goes to colonise Siberia up to small Mongolia. Only there is need for change those Siberian coridore southern plain provinces to grain and marginal and leave fures only at woods and mountins. Also those grain plain provs would be with positive growth while those rich wood and mountin provs could be with negative. Also by colonising those poor plain prov, Kazack secedes them to Uzbeck.
So Uzbeck will be military, ofensive, aristocratic, non-trade desert hordes, while Kazakh would be were Siberia Khanate is and would be defencive, trade, plutocrasy, free trade, free subject trade and colonisation vassal of Uzbeck.