"Fall of Rome" A late roman era mod organizing thread

[LongVin]

First off thanks to everyone who showed interest we are going to actually make a roman empire mod for the late roman empire Justinian Period. For those of you who don't know Justinian was an 6th century Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire(byzantium) and during his reign attempted to reconquer the western empire which fell to the barbarian hordes a hundred years before.

The design so far:
1. The game will be begin some time in the mid 6th century. Perhaps right before Justinian comes to power or right after he comes to power. This has yet to be decided. And the game will end just before the official CK game starts.
2. Research into Characters will be as historic as possible for important leaders. Otherwise characters will be created based on the political climate of the time.
3. Catholicism(might be renamed generic Christains) will be the official religion for most player run states. Adding in the Pope has yet to be decided since during this time the Pope wasn't in the same position of power as he was during the feudal times.
Cancelled:The Orthodox religion will be changed to represente playable pagans such as the Persians and perhaps the visigoths(before there conversion).
5. A horde like effect of the muslim conquest of the mideast.

phew I think thats it for now if i missed anything tell me and ill go back and edit it.

Reference maps for the time:
http://www.euratlas.com/big/500big.jpg
http://www.euratlas.com/big/600big.jpg
http://www.euratlas.com/big/700big.jpg
http://www.euratlas.com/big/800big.jpg
http://www.euratlas.com/big/900big.jpg
http://www.euratlas.com/big/1000big.jpg

note: as you can see the papal state is created by the year 900 so we could perhaps have an event to make that come about and then have the pope act in a more important role.

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What we need.

staff:alot of people showed interest in the other thread but just repost what you can do here.

1. researchers- self exclamatory these people's job is to research historical facts from the time including rulers, events, and maps. They are also responsible to find common names from the different groups so the character creators have something to work with.

2. character creators- They are responsible for creating the text file in which all the starting characters will reside.

3. Modders- These fellas are the guys who make the mod work. They make events, countries, design the map and put everything in a neat little package.

If you are interested or expressed interest in the previous thread just post here.

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We also need to get a time patch to allow for the game to run from the 6th to the 11th century.
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Thats basically it. Im going to work on creating a website and a forum for the development so we can keep everything organized and neat.

 

[LongVin]

Update: just checking up on my history and im throwing the reccomendation out here of possibily starting the mod in like 470 when the western Empire was on the verge of collapse. It would allow the campaign to be more expanded and inclusive and allowing the player to try to regain the glory of Rome with enemies on all size and the Eastern Empire unwilling to help.

 

[unmerged(14905)]

2. character creators
3. Modders

I can do this two...

We also need to get a time patch to allow for the game to run from the 6th to the 11th century.

...and this.

Update: just checking up on my history and im throwing the reccomendation out here of possibily starting the mod in like 470 when the western Empire was on the verge of collapse.

I suggest to start not before 536 (beginning of the gothic war in Italy). Better later (590... end of the first longobard conquest of Italy, beginning of the papacy of St.Gregory the Great, Maurice Emperor help Khosrau II to become King of Persia, a year after the Visigoths change from arianism to catholicism, a date near to the arab invasion but not that near to, the frank states a bit more developed, some german tribe organized).
Starting earlier, minor possibilities of gaming choice, major problems in research.

EDIT: ah... following the date detabe: I think the title of the mod got to be discussed.

 

[unmerged(14905)]

...or maybe right before 533, to keep the Vandals in the game...

 

[LongVin]

ok cool. 533 sounds good.

For playable kingdoms heres my suggestions-
Eastern Roman Empire(definitely in)
Persian Empire(definately in)

Visigoths(starting out as main stream pagans then getting a catholicism convert event would be best.)
Vandals
Longobards
Frankish Kingdom.

 

[unmerged(14905)]

For playable kingdoms heres my suggestions-
Eastern Roman Empire(definitely in)
Persian Empire(definately in)

Visigoths(starting out as main stream pagans then getting a catholicism convert event would be best.)
Vandals
Longobards
Frankish Kingdom.

Visigoths werent pagans. But arians.

I dont agree about persians. Give to "catholic" the name of christians and to "orthodox" the name arian (or defintely out of the game). Persian must be PAGAN, then not playable (remember the game engine, and the graphics of the various inteface menu... this mod is already a bit distant to fit in the engine, IMHO we havent to get distance from it anymore).

This way we can play BYZA and vassals, the western roman-barbaric kingdoms and vassals, Burgundy and vassals, maybe some german ducal tribe (not sure about the date of conversion of Bavaria, Thuringia and Saxony) and vassals, some britannia minor.

 

[beezneez]

i believe the persians were zoroastrians (sp?). may be best to create that religion for the mod, arians also me thinks. also, has anyone had a look at how the tech tree is done? i mean, for best historical accuracy it would have to be re-done. whats more, to be able to play as justinian, it would have to start when he attained power i think. 533 is pre-justinian if i remember correctly. was alive, but not emperor. any thought on maybe starting when heraclius became emperor and became "the first crusader"

 

[unmerged(14477)]

I think I could help with this part

researchers- self exclamatory these people's job is to research historical facts from the time including rulers, events, and maps. They are also responsible to find common names from the different groups so the character creators have something to work with.

I am interested in the Easten Roman Empire (aka Byzantium) most of all.

Also, I think Mikon Orod is right and we should keep the Persian pagan, and give the second Christian tag to the Arians. In that case, a 533 start would be rather fitting, no?

 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

3. Catholicism(might be renamed generic Christains) will be the official religion for most player run states. Adding in the Pope has yet to be decided since during this time the Pope wasn't in the same position of power as he was during the feudal times.
4. The Orthodox religion will be changed to represente playable pagans such as the Persians and perhaps the visigoths(before there conversion).

imho I'm not sure that removing the difference between the Orthodox and Catholic christians would be a good move. IIRC, the Schism only made official that which had been more or less fact for a very long time.

Take Clodovech for instance. He converted to the Christian tradition that was used in Rome, not the one of the Arians and not the one used in Constantinople.

I'm not an expert on this though, just saying what I think.
But if you can pull the scenario off I'm sure it'll be a good one

 

[unmerged(14905)]

has anyone had a look at how the tech tree is done? i mean, for best historical accuracy it would have to be re-done

sure, I forgot to add this point yesterday in my posts: the tech-tree must be reworked.

we should keep the Persian pagan, and give the second Christian tag to the Arians. In that case, a 533 start would be rather fitting, no?

For the truth, I think its better to unite all the crhristians under one religion tag. HAve arains in the X century isnt so realistic.

 

[Basil II]

I agree that 470 is a good date, as that is when the West was most populated with states and Germanic kingdoms, and a weak Western Empire that controlled Italy and almost nothing else.

There is good reason why the Eastern Empire didn't intervene to halt the collapse of the West. It had it's OWN problems with invaders (Ostrogoths, which were later gotten rid of by encouraging them to replace Odoacer), and they had the pressure of near continual warfare or near warfare with the more vigourous Sassanian Persian Empire.

Indeed, Imperial policy was largely directed at preventing full scale war with Persia. Justinian only attacked the West after securing a peace with Persia. His time period represents the only window where Eastern intervention in the collapse of the West was even possible..

The really ruinous event was the Persian War of 600-620, which sapped the vigour of both Empires and left everyone wide open for the Mohammedian steamroller that happened less than 10 years after peace restored the pre-war frontiers between Persia and Byzantium.

Note as well, it was Heraculis who most re-created the Eastern Empire, to the point that it's reign that it got it's "Byzantine" character.

What will be the hardest is to simulate the heresies, such as Arianism and Monophystism... The former was the main reason for the sucess of Justinian's western campaigns, as the Catholic populations welcomed the elimination of their Arian rulers. The latter was the main reason why there wasn't more resistance in Egypt, Syria, and Palestine to the Persian and Mohammedian invasions...

The only Catholic countries in 470 AD were the Franks, the Imperial remnants in the West, and the Eastern Empire.

 

[LongVin]

ok so now we are just going to use the Catholic tag(most likely renamed christains) for all player run counties.

 

[LongVin]

imho I'm not sure that removing the difference between the Orthodox and Catholic christians would be a good move. IIRC, the Schism only made official that which had been more or less fact for a very long time.

Take Clodovech for instance. He converted to the Christian tradition that was used in Rome, not the one of the Arians and not the one used in Constantinople.

I'm not an expert on this though, just saying what I think.
But if you can pull the scenario off I'm sure it'll be a good one

It depends on the year. Basically before the Pope became the Universal leader of all Christains there were 5 different places of power in Christainity. one was Rome, another was constantinople, I believe kiev and Jerusalem were 2 others don't hold me on that though and theres was a fifth one which I can't think of now.
Now basically up until the hun invasion all the Pope was, was the bishop of Rome. When Pope Leo visited Atillia and said God sent down his angels to prevent Atillia from sacking Rome alot more people rallied around the pope. Basically because of that the Pope got more power and was accepted as the Universal(Catholic) leader of the Church. Of course each region still had there own customs and practices within the Church which exist even to today.
Basically the Schism didn't happen for religious reasons it happened for secular reasons. The Emperor of Byzantum wanted the Bishop of Constantinople elected pope but another bishop was elected and the Emperor refused to accept it and they schismed.

 

[richvh]

The five patriarchs of the late Empire were Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria. Kiev was still pagan.

 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

It depends on the year. Basically before the Pope became the Universal leader of all Christains there were 5 different places of power in Christainity. one was Rome, another was constantinople, I believe kiev and Jerusalem were 2 others don't hold me on that though and theres was a fifth one which I can't think of now.
Now basically up until the hun invasion all the Pope was, was the bishop of Rome. When Pope Leo visited Atillia and said God sent down his angels to prevent Atillia from sacking Rome alot more people rallied around the pope. Basically because of that the Pope got more power and was accepted as the Universal(Catholic) leader of the Church. Of course each region still had there own customs and practices within the Church which exist even to today.
Basically the Schism didn't happen for religious reasons it happened for secular reasons. The Emperor of Byzantum wanted the Bishop of Constantinople elected pope but another bishop was elected and the Emperor refused to accept it and they schismed.

all true, but the point remains, imho, that by the time the Schism happened the Western and Eastern Church had been two (lets ignore the smaller denominations for easyness) seperate entities for a very long time in practice.

The center of the christian world in Western and (most of) Central Europe
was Rome. Western Rulers, when converting, submitted to Rome. The monastic struggles between the Irish and the Benedictines (iirc) who supported Rome was ended in favour of Rome. Charlemagne was crowned by the Pope, something that would have been totally impossible in the East where the Emperor decided who would be patriarch.

Eastern influence in the west just wasn't big enough for us to actually be able and say that both churches were one and the same. The Schism was in effect the political result of a seperation that had been effect for centuries.

still, all of this is imho.

 

[Patricius]

It was not quite the Irish versus Rome. There was a difference of usages - dating of Easter, episcopal organisation - but contact in the form of pilgrimage and correspondence was not too different from other parts of Christendom outside Frankia. Visigothic usages were different from Frankish usages. Often when it suited them bishops in sixth century Gaul, for example, might seek a judgement from the emperor in Constantinople. Given that they would often use the emperor's reign and consulship to date correspondence as the Pope did, the Papacy was not necessarily any sort of court of final instance.

Therefore the somewhat different nature of the Papacy then, well, same ambitions with much less power, there could be problems. He was though recognised as the highest authority in the west and could at times, claim authority in the east. Modern Greece for example was within the Papal remit until the Papacy finally broke with the Empire in the eight century.

 

[Patricius]

There would nothing unhistorical about a Catholic-Orthodox divide if there could be some accounting for Nestorians etc. Cross jurisdiction between the Eastern and Western Churches could only be simulated by changing boundaries. Removing the Catholic church would be going too far.

 

[unmerged(9076)]

Just a quick historical fact that was pointed out earlier, but ignored: the religion of Persia was Zarathustrianism (Greek, Zoroastrianism), which was by no means a pagan religion. It is often called the first monotheistic religion in the world; by the time period of the late Roman empire it had evolved into a contest between dualism and monotheism (Zurvan heresy). I think from a personal standpoint, ignoring engine problems for a moment, playing as Persia before the rise of Islam would be extremely fun. Considering those very same engine problems could destroy the whole idea, and I'm afraid that I can't speak on the subject as an expert. However, if it was feasible, I would advocate this addition.

Also, into the Catholicism-Orthodoxy debate, creating one Christianity is feasible. Traditions in all of the Christian areas of Europe/Mediterranean varied wildly, as did early Christianity itself (there are countless Gospels that were simply brushed aside during the creation of official Church doctrine), but there was not a clearly delineated power struggle between east and west during this period. The Patriarch of Rome considered himself to be more important than other Patriarchs, and western kings gravitated towards him, but that doesn't represent a schism. It was spheres of influence, a secular, not religious, differentiation, and thus using a single religion for all Christian rulers is historical.

 

[unmerged(6093)]

all true, but the point remains, imho, that by the time the Schism happened the Western and Eastern Church had been two (lets ignore the smaller denominations for easyness) seperate entities for a very long time in practice.

The center of the christian world in Western and (most of) Central Europe
was Rome. Western Rulers, when converting, submitted to Rome. The monastic struggles between the Irish and the Benedictines (iirc) who supported Rome was ended in favour of Rome. Charlemagne was crowned by the Pope, something that would have been totally impossible in the East where the Emperor decided who would be patriarch.

Eastern influence in the west just wasn't big enough for us to actually be able and say that both churches were one and the same. The Schism was in effect the political result of a seperation that had been effect for centuries.

still, all of this is imho.

There were also serious regious tensions between Alexandria and Constantinopel that wasn´t resolved until the arab conquest of Egypt

 

[Luis de Aveiro]

Camelot

Will King Arthur be King of the Britons?

And About his court? The Knights of the Round Table, Merlin, Etc?