• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

WTH666444

Major
22 Badges
Mar 1, 2021
653
1.422
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
{Threads were merged. The title of this post's thread was

'Has any dev ever talked about why it is tribal vassals are locked out of reforming if their liege is admin?'

Thanks, prismaticmarcus)


At least in the "much less stringent requirements" sense available for both Feudal and Clan?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • 1Like
Reactions:
The social structure of groups organized around "big men" who serve as war leaders and attract warriors to fight for them is a way closer to the system of private ownership of land by a military aristocracy than the latter is to the beuracratic system of administrative government. The only requirements to go admin are domain size and powerful vassal opinion (plus some cash), while going from tribal to feudal has religious, technological, and crown authority requirements. Honestly I think both that transitioning from tribal should be easier and transitioning to admin much harder.
 
  • 8
  • 1Like
Reactions:
The social structure of groups organized around "big men" who serve as war leaders and attract warriors to fight for them is a way closer to the system of private ownership of land by a military aristocracy than the latter is to the beuracratic system of administrative government. The only requirements to go admin are domain size and powerful vassal opinion (plus some cash), while going from tribal to feudal has religious, technological, and crown authority requirements. Honestly I think both that transitioning from tribal should be easier and transitioning to admin much harder.
Not every vassal is going along with. Only your five most powerful. And any others who like you enough. And only in you de jure realm. But just like going from tribal to feudal/clan requires absolute tribal authority, absolute feudal/clan authority should be a requirement. And I think there should be a transition period when changing governments. Cultures with bureaucratic ethos should require absolute for kingdom level transition or level 3 for empire.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Yeah, it definitely feels really sudden, and far too fast.

In my humble opinion it would make more sense if it started around the ruler’s domain – kinda like Frederik II Hohenstaufen attempted to impose Constitution of Melfi on his Sicillian domain – and only afterwards it would start influencing the wider realm.

IMHO it would also be more natural if the most powerful vassals were biggest roadblocks rather than early supporters of Administrative government. I mean, they are the most powerful men in the realm – and so probably should be the least interested in gambling it all.
 
  • 3
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Yeah, it definitely feels really sudden, and far too fast.

In my humble opinion it would make more sense if it started around the ruler’s domain – kinda like Frederik II Hohenstaufen attempted to impose Constitution of Melfi on his Sicillian domain – and only afterwards it would start influencing the wider realm.

IMHO it would also be more natural if the most powerful vassals were biggest roadblocks rather than early supporters of Administrative government. I mean, they are the most powerful men in the realm – and so probably should be the least interested in gambling it all.
They are. You need every powerful vassal at 50 opinion+ to be able to adopt admin.
 
It should also be possible to "devolve" from Admin to Feudal. Japanese mechanics sounds like something similar, no wonder people already are asking to make it possible for non-Japan realms.
 
  • 9
  • 5Like
Reactions:
Admin should just not be a strict upgrade to feudal. Byz wasn't fundamentally better managed than the feudal states it co-existed with.

And yeah, it should be possible for admin realms to become feudal. Many areas (including byz) went from more 'admin-like' to more 'feudal-like' (in CK terms, not literally) in governance during the period covered by CK3.

e; as a comparison I find the tribal/feudal transition far better handled. Both have very clear advantages/disadvantages but with the feudal getting stronger the more time passes. But going feudal too early can still kill your tribal realm since it isnt just a simple upgrade button to go feudal.
 
  • 8Like
Reactions:
Admin should just not be a strict upgrade to feudal. Byz wasn't fundamentally better managed than the feudal states it co-existed with.

And yeah, it should be possible for admin realms to become feudal. Many areas (including byz) went from more 'admin-like' to more 'feudal-like' (in CK terms, not literally) in governance during the period covered by CK3.

e; as a comparison I find the tribal/feudal transition far better handled. Both have very clear advantages/disadvantages but with the feudal getting stronger the more time passes. But going feudal too early can still kill your tribal realm since it isnt just a simple upgrade button to go feudal.

The Byzantines had to face a series of external pressure that many feudal realms in the west didn't have to, especially pressure from the East which isn't feudal at all. The Crusaders implementation of feudalism in the crusader states was always a bit of a struggle in their hold of the lands against the Arab forces and also against Greek successor states after 4th crusade.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I feel like the crusader states had bigger issues than feudalism what with the whole ruling over culturally and religiously alien populations. They were also far less powerful than Byz was up until the mid 14th century. That is not something I'd use to prove the inherent superiority of Byz governance, would you use post-Andronikos III Byz as an example for how bad the Byzantine system was?
 
Last edited:
  • 7Like
Reactions:
I feel like the crusader states had bigger issues than feudalism what with the whole ruling over culturally and religiously alien populations. They were also far less powerful than Byz was up until the mid 14th century. That is not something I'd use to prove the inherent superiority of Byz governance, would you use post-Andronikos III Byz as an example for how bad the Byzantine system was?


If we look at the Latin Empire and the crusader states when they tried to implement feudalisation in the former Byzantine lands, one of the problems was they alienated the Byzantine administrative bureaucracy, which doesn't really help their hold on their lands.

One of the key strength of the Byzantines was their continued ability to muster a huge army again and again until 1204, which at that point they lost most of their old centralised administrative system and becomes much weaker as an result.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
The Byzantines had to face a series of external pressure that many feudal realms in the west didn't have to, especially pressure from the East which isn't feudal at all. The Crusaders implementation of feudalism in the crusader states was always a bit of a struggle in their hold of the lands against the Arab forces and also against Greek successor states after 4th crusade.
Every state had to face external and internal pressures and challenges. Those varied from place to place and time to time, but they were always an issue, and they had to find appropriate means of dealing with them.

The Byzantine approach, with its centralized government, deemphasis on hereditary succession (although, in practice, heredity still mattered a ton) was one approach (and one that evolved over the medieval period).

The more western approach, with its heavier reliance on hereditary rulers and subrulers to raise troops as needed, and less centralized administration, was another (and also one that evolved over the period). And of course there was considerable variation between western realms as well.

Both had their own strengths and weaknesses appropriate for their historical backgrounds. There's a reason that the western states moved away from their more administrative Roman roots to adopt the systems they did.
One of the key strength of the Byzantines was their continued ability to muster a huge army again and again until 1204, which at that point they lost most of their old centralised administrative system and becomes much weaker as an result.
Basically every major medieval state was able to do that, though, especially given the population and wealth they had to draw on. If anything, the domestic Byzantine military was unusually ineffective (and thus increasingly reliant on foreign mercenaries), as the Byzantine system comparatively deprioritized military training (whereas most western states, with their more or less constant tradition of private wars and feuds at the local level, had plenty of combat-experienced troops to draw on if they needed to unite against a common enemy).

If anything, the current administrative system, where the Byzantines, compared to feudals, are able to call upon fewer weak levies but more high-quality troops (MAAs) and local governors are able to expand freely (thanks to their free expansion CB) is exactly the opposite of how it should be. The whole MAA system is designed to represent the experienced personal troops of a feudal household or tribal warband, and the idea that a governor in a centralized realm should have more military autonomy to wage private wars than a feudal lord is ridiculous on its face.

But that gets back to the bigger issue with feudals and levies in-game: levies are effectively worthless, and they are the only thing vassals provide. Which makes feudal vassals worthless, whereas in reality they should be a major strength of the feudal system.
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
Every state had to face external and internal pressures and challenges. Those varied from place to place and time to time, but they were always an issue, and they had to find appropriate means of dealing with them.

The Byzantine approach, with its centralized government, deemphasis on hereditary succession (although, in practice, heredity still mattered a ton) was one approach (and one that evolved over the medieval period).

The more western approach, with its heavier reliance on hereditary rulers and subrulers to raise troops as needed, and less centralized administration, was another (and also one that evolved over the period). And of course there was considerable variation between western realms as well.

Both had their own strengths and weaknesses appropriate for their historical backgrounds. There's a reason that the western states moved away from their more administrative Roman roots to adopt the systems they did.

Well, the genesis of feudalism is also the result of the post-Carolingian collapse, in what scholars called the "Feudal Revolution". It's not so much as western states moved away from Roman administration roots as much as the end of Carolingian empire meant local power is more concentrated in a period of fragmentation.

This in a way is similar to that of China when their central dynastic administration collapse and rules comes into the hands of local rulers. And power even in western Europe gets recentralised again once more by the 13th century. So it's not like Western Europe was always feudal, and even Anglo-Saxon England has a strong degree of centralised admin than the later Normans.


Basically every major medieval state was able to do that, though, especially given the population and wealth they had to draw on. If anything, the domestic Byzantine military was unusually ineffective (and thus increasingly reliant on foreign mercenaries), as the Byzantine system comparatively deprioritized military training (whereas most western states, with their more or less constant tradition of private wars and feuds at the local level, had plenty of combat-experienced troops to draw on if they needed to unite against a common enemy).

If anything, the current administrative system, where the Byzantines, compared to feudals, are able to call upon fewer weak levies but more high-quality troops (MAAs) and local governors are able to expand freely (thanks to their free expansion CB) is exactly the opposite of how it should be. The whole MAA system is designed to represent the experienced personal troops of a feudal household or tribal warband, and the idea that a governor in a centralized realm should have more military autonomy to wage private wars than a feudal lord is ridiculous on its face.

But that gets back to the bigger issue with feudals and levies in-game: levies are effectively worthless, and they are the only thing vassals provide. Which makes feudal vassals worthless, whereas in reality they should be a major strength of the feudal system.

The ability to draw upon a large population and actually deploy them is one that requires a degree of organisation, and via that a form of administration to get large armies mobilised and deployed to further regions.

Even the Crusaders during the 1st crusade depended heavily on Byzantine logistics to even arrive at the Holy lands ( not withstanding the times the crusaders decided to try and attack Byzantine cities).

For most of feudal Europe, they generally did not need to wage wars further away, nor do they need to mobilise military manpower for a prolonged period. But when they do, they quickly turned into a more centralised administrative force than relying on just feudal levies and vassals.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
There needs to be strengths and weaknesses inherent in feudalism vs admin, which is not apparent right now. Since the Byzantines didn’t necessarily have a fixed line of succession, intrigue and rebellion were the order of the day. Only a strong ruler like Basil II could turn the complex gears of Byzantine government into expansion mode. These things aren’t reflected in game currently.

When the Iberian Christian kingdoms faced a united Muslim front against them, they didn’t crumble. The attempts to impose feudalism in the crusader states failed partially because the inherent challenges of installing a new government on an unwilling population.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
There needs to be strengths and weaknesses inherent in feudalism vs admin, which is not apparent right now. Since the Byzantines didn’t necessarily have a fixed line of succession, intrigue and rebellion were the order of the day. Only a strong ruler like Basil II could turn the complex gears of Byzantine government into expansion mode. These things aren’t reflected in game currently.

When the Iberian Christian kingdoms faced a united Muslim front against them, they didn’t crumble. The attempts to impose feudalism in the crusader states failed partially because the inherent challenges of installing a new government on an unwilling population.

You can model it as feudal kingdoms being more stable and have less civil wars, since the right of being kings/emperors are more based around dynastic ideas of succession, while admin for Byzantines suffers more because technically anyone can become the emperor.

So you balance it with Admin = more powerful of the realm is stable with a strong emperor, but being stable is less common.

Feudal= more stable in general even when you have a weaker ruler since nobility can't easily challenge for throne unless they are the royal family/dynasty?
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Yeah, it definitely feels really sudden, and far too fast.

In my humble opinion it would make more sense if it started around the ruler’s domain – kinda like Frederik II Hohenstaufen attempted to impose Constitution of Melfi on his Sicillian domain – and only afterwards it would start influencing the wider realm.

IMHO it would also be more natural if the most powerful vassals were biggest roadblocks rather than early supporters of Administrative government. I mean, they are the most powerful men in the realm – and so probably should be the least interested in gambling it all.
Even in Frederik II's day, the Emperor could still strip duchies from disloyal vassals and change electoral rights
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Even in Frederik II's day, the Emperor could still strip duchies from disloyal vassals and change electoral rights
It really depends on the Emperor’s personal power. Once Fredrick died and a new German king was elected after an interregnum, the princes tried to pick a weak candidate from the insignificant house of Hapsburg.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Well, the genesis of feudalism is also the result of the post-Carolingian collapse, in what scholars called the "Feudal Revolution". It's not so much as western states moved away from Roman administration roots as much as the end of Carolingian empire meant local power is more concentrated in a period of fragmentation.

This in a way is similar to that of China when their central dynastic administration collapse and rules comes into the hands of local rulers. And power even in western Europe gets recentralised again once more by the 13th century. So it's not like Western Europe was always feudal, and even Anglo-Saxon England has a strong degree of centralised admin than the later Normans.
AFAIK, most modern scholars tend to avoid the term "feudalism" to start with, as it is a term with no clear meaning, and the most common one ("land held in exchange for oathsworn service") doesn't generally describe most European landholding arrangements of the time.

But that doesn't change the fact that, in-game, basically all of Catholic Europe is given a single government form (called "feudal"), which is strictly inferior to the Byzantine one.

The ability to draw upon a large population and actually deploy them is one that requires a degree of organisation, and via that a form of administration to get large armies mobilised and deployed to further regions.
Absolutely it does. Which is why the current system (where feudals get more levies, but Byzantines get more MAAs) is exactly backwards.

Because the lack of central administration meant that western realms tended to rely on smaller, but more experienced armies (as the various retinues tended to double as essentially muscle for the local lords, who would then take those retainers with them when called for service).

There's a reason that basically everybody (Greek, Frank, or Turk) tended to consider Frankish troops to be of higher quality on a per capita basis than Greek troops in a normal fight (to the point where Byzantines regularly relied on Frankish mercenaries, even during the Nicaean period when they had just lost the capital to Frankish crusaders): because they had plenty of practical experience in local skirmishes (and also tournaments, which tended to have direct military applications as well).
Even the Crusaders during the 1st crusade depended heavily on Byzantine logistics to even arrive at the Holy lands ( not withstanding the times the crusaders decided to try and attack Byzantine cities).

For most of feudal Europe, they generally did not need to wage wars further away, nor do they need to mobilise military manpower for a prolonged period. But when they do, they quickly turned into a more centralised administrative force than relying on just feudal levies and vassals.
Sure. But the game doesn't make that distinction; it just calls all the Catholic realms "feudal," and has them rely on the ruler's personal MAAs, and then levies raised from their vassals. Which renders them weaker than the Byzantine armies, and obscures the very real military strengths of western realms.

Catholic countries, after all, were able to fight extended wars away from their homelands at times, even if it wasn't their normal approach. The English spent most of the post-1066 period at war in France, Scotland, or both (with occasional excursions to conquer Wales and Ireland). The HRE frequently found itself involved in wars in Italy, the Balkans, Eastern Europe, or France (including Barbarossa basically swatting aside Byzantine opposition during the Third Crusade). Charles of Valois led a French army into Sicily, and a few decades later lost it to an Aragonese invasion. And so on.

The Byzantine system absolutely had strengths. So did the Western European systems. And the fact that, in-game, the Byzantine system is strictly better is a real problem for game balance, especially as the Byzantines are already crazy strong without that bonus (as demonstrated by pre-RtP Byzantium, which was already a monster).
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
AFAIK, most modern scholars tend to avoid the term "feudalism" to start with, as it is a term with no clear meaning, and the most common one ("land held in exchange for oathsworn service") doesn't generally describe most European landholding arrangements of the time.

But that doesn't change the fact that, in-game, basically all of Catholic Europe is given a single government form (called "feudal"), which is strictly inferior to the Byzantine one.

I'm aware. My own approach would be to gradually do away with feudalism entirely with future DLCs, and replace it as a more developed model that better depicts the more dynamic governments in Western Europe than what we have so far, kinda like how Japan is getting a more developed version of 'feudalism' so to speak.


Absolutely it does. Which is why the current system (where feudals get more levies, but Byzantines get more MAAs) is exactly backwards.

Because the lack of central administration meant that western realms tended to rely on smaller, but more experienced armies (as the various retinues tended to double as essentially muscle for the local lords, who would then take those retainers with them when called for service).

I won't say it's smaller and more experienced army but rather the wars usually don't require a huge army to be raised. You raise only as many men as you need. Keeping a huge army in the field long term is an expensive venture.

A lot of levies are only expected to be levied for a short campaign season.



There's a reason that basically everybody (Greek, Frank, or Turk) tended to consider Frankish troops to be of higher quality on a per capita basis than Greek troops in a normal fight (to the point where Byzantines regularly relied on Frankish mercenaries, even during the Nicaean period when they had just lost the capital to Frankish crusaders): because they had plenty of practical experience in local skirmishes (and also tournaments, which tended to have direct military applications as well).


Well, that's because the Byzantines are trying to recruit the elite mercenaries as they don't exactly need a mass of feudal levies. If they need someone who can hold a spear and stay in formation, they can recruit someone from their own lands than relying on foreign soldiers. The foreign soldiers they tend to recruit are generally already a self-selecting elite group.

And also, Byzantine recruits different soldiers from different parts of the world to maintain a combined-arms army, with different units good at different roles. Frankish knights are used as one component of an integrated force.



Sure. But the game doesn't make that distinction; it just calls all the Catholic realms "feudal," and has them rely on the ruler's personal MAAs, and then levies raised from their vassals. Which renders them weaker than the Byzantine armies, and obscures the very real military strengths of western realms.

As it is, this is because levies are largely pointless once you get to a stage where you can get more MAA. So the game ends up being a case of who gets more MAA wins. Even more is the issue that MAA quality depends on buildings upgrades, which is a complicated system for AI and even new players to solve.


Catholic countries, after all, were able to fight extended wars away from their homelands at times, even if it wasn't their normal approach. The English spent most of the post-1066 period at war in France, Scotland, or both (with occasional excursions to conquer Wales and Ireland). The HRE frequently found itself involved in wars in Italy, the Balkans, Eastern Europe, or France (including Barbarossa basically swatting aside Byzantine opposition during the Third Crusade). Charles of Valois led a French army into Sicily, and a few decades later lost it to an Aragonese invasion. And so on.

I mean when they did, they've already turned into and implemented a more centralised system for sustaining the army on long campaigns. Richard II levied a special tax to fund his army crusade to Holy Lands as an example. The First Crusade is a bit of an exception, but that was itself a novel concept as religious fervour drove many of the crusader onwards even without much plan for how to sustain their way to the holy lands. And the first crusade army won't have survived if they didn't pillage/get logistic support from Byzantines as well.

Even during the 100 years war between France and England, it saw the rise of increasingly professional soldiers as well.

The Byzantine system absolutely had strengths. So did the Western European systems. And the fact that, in-game, the Byzantine system is strictly better is a real problem for game balance, especially as the Byzantines are already crazy strong without that bonus (as demonstrated by pre-RtP Byzantium, which was already a monster).

I think what you need to do is to implement how to fund and sustain a big war long term, a feudal realm have to implement more centralised policies anyway. So what this would do is instead of letting the feudal realm remain "static", players can do things to change how the government is organised with various options. So the kind of government is shaped by circumstances and changes, and feudal realms can evolve to become a more centralised 'admin-like' government.

But it all goes back to the issue of what we define as "feudalism" in game, and a need to show a more dynamic government system for western Europe than existing feudal mechanics.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions: