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AHumpierRogue

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Apr 27, 2019
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Something I found interesting in the Q&A released recently is the notion that Japan can essentially slide between Admin and Feudal over time if the Shogunate forms. However I am a bit unsure as to how accurate this really would be for Japan. I am not read on Japanese history beyond the pop level I must admit(as well as absorbing stuff from historical blogs, Wikipedia and educated posters on forums such as this one) so take my opinion with two heavy pounds of salt but my understanding is that the slide into clan owned domains was something that ocurred gradually over the entire period. At the start of the Kamakura shogunate, the first "Shugo" or military governors would be appointed, but those were just that. Appointments. Likewise to begin with there were still plenty of civilian governors still around. While clans did start to grab territory for their outright control earlier on(according to Encyclopedia Britannica even during the 11th and 12th century, though I presume these would be best understood as being Clan Estates in CK3 terms) to my knowledge it's not until the Shugo start getting appointed under the Kamakura Shogunate that Daimyo start to become a big thing, and even then mostly as Shugo; they still rely on territorial appointments for most of their power and wealth they can grab. It's not until the Muromachi period and the very weak Ashikaga shoguns that Daimyo really start to grab more and more control over increasingly large and independent domains. Point is, there is a slow and steady decline into clans taking more and more power for themselves; it's not an instant descent into feudal realms. Appointment to provincial governorships should still be extremely important for all rulers, just now there is a military bent and presumably there should be more ways to monopolize power over your appointment.

Anyone more knowledgeable with Japanese history feel free to smack me down, correct me, provide additional details and context, etc. but I am at the very least somewhat confident with my basic premise that the Kamakura Shogunate should not be an instant(or even just very quick) transition to feudal government.
 
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I know the second shogunate period resulted from the Mongol invasions not being able to reward samurai for their service. It became feudal in nature. Maybe something like that what they are talking about.
 
Something I found interesting in the Q&A released recently is the notion that Japan can essentially slide between Admin and Feudal over time if the Shogunate forms. However I am a bit unsure as to how accurate this really would be for Japan. I am not read on Japanese history beyond the pop level I must admit(as well as absorbing stuff from historical blogs, Wikipedia and educated posters on forums such as this one) so take my opinion with two heavy pounds of salt but my understanding is that the slide into clan owned domains was something that ocurred gradually over the entire period. At the start of the Kamakura shogunate, the first "Shugo" or military governors would be appointed, but those were just that. Appointments. Likewise to begin with there were still plenty of civilian governors still around. While clans did start to grab territory for their outright control earlier on(according to Encyclopedia Britannica even during the 11th and 12th century, though I presume these would be best understood as being Clan Estates in CK3 terms) to my knowledge it's not until the Shugo start getting appointed under the Kamakura Shogunate that Daimyo start to become a big thing, and even then mostly as Shugo; they still rely on territorial appointments for most of their power and wealth they can grab. It's not until the Muromachi period and the very weak Ashikaga shoguns that Daimyo really start to grab more and more control over increasingly large and independent domains. Point is, there is a slow and steady decline into clans taking more and more power for themselves; it's not an instant descent into feudal realms. Appointment to provincial governorships should still be extremely important for all rulers, just now there is a military bent and presumably there should be more ways to monopolize power over your appointment.

Anyone more knowledgeable with Japanese history feel free to smack me down, correct me, provide additional details and context, etc. but I am at the very least somewhat confident with my basic premise that the Kamakura Shogunate should not be an instant(or even just very quick) transition to feudal government.
That is a pretty good rundown. There are 2 different translations for "shugo" that you'll encounter if you read more deeply, and both are appropriate for the correct period. For the Kamakura period, it's "constable" and they really were mostly a sheriff of sorts for the province. Then for the Nanboku-cho period onward it's "military governor" - particularly after 1350 when they were given increasing fiscal powers over their province through the half-tax system. Especially in the Kamakura period the civil governor was still an important role. Hopefully the implementation will be able to have a push and pull between the civil state and warrior rule, with powers sometimes overlapping or the arrangements different in some provinces than others.
 
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