Fighting China

[unmerged(94581)]

Does anybody have links to articles/guides describing people's experiences with the subject, or perhaps have some wisdom of your own to share in this thread?

I want to immediately rule out the obvious strategy of coming in full force, overwhelming the Chinese with 200 divisions, annexing the entire country, putting down rebel fires for 10 years while fighting off BB war attacks, and finally overwhelming the rest of the world with your massive economy and manpower.

I'm curious if it's possible to win small, regional wars against China, taking small pieces of land from it, gradually weakening the monster.

I've done it as Japan, wiping out their navy and taking islands and conducting some seaborne invasions where they didn't expect. Got peace and a few territories.

Now I'm curious if it's possible to do the same as Russia, given a huge shared land border that lets China just walk troops to me.

Those Manchurian coal and iron mines look so inviting, but I obviously don't want to have to feed tens and hundreds of thousands of russians to a grand slaughterfest to get them.

 

[doublezero]

Sure you can do what you're thinking of, but it will take forever. Even with 100% warscore in your favor, China will only give you maybe 8 provinces at the most in a peace deal. And getting 100% against China is really hard unless you can get hundreds of divisions into the theater. It's not the Chinese Army that's the problem, it's all the constant revolts.

Russia might be able to raise hundreds of divisions, but not early in the game, without harming its economic development.
Most other countries can't even dream of conquering China all in one shot. Even the USA would have trouble doing it before the 1870s.

And depending on which version of the game you have - as the game progresses, you might have Great Powers guaranteeing China's independence. So you would find yourself fighting them as well. Which means you have to hold troops back to use against those other countries. So with one hand tied behind your back, your war with China won't go as well as you had hoped.

In the latest VIP for Revolutions, it's very risky to attack China once you get into the 1860s. They have their independence guaranteed by several powerful nations. I've been trying to go around the guarantees by attacking countries which China itself had guaranteed, like Ryukyu and Korea, but even they are guaranteed by Russia, Japan, etc. To win you need to defeat whichever Great Power is helping China. And if you win, that's when you are in trouble because then you're going to get attacked by all the Great Powers every 5 years.

So if your strategy is to conquer China, you need to figure out which is better: 1) sacrificing everything to conquer the entire country once, as soon as possible, then dealing with BB for the rest of the game, or 2) trying to take tiny chunks of the country every few years and dealing with whichever country(ies) come to China's defense when you do. Both these strategies will create problems for you throughout the rest of the game.

 

[unmerged(94581)]

Hmm, what are the popular strategy for containing China then?

With over five times my population and a big land border, when this monster becomes civilized, I'll be in serious trouble.

I can't take them over wholesale, as this will mean my economy has to feed 500 million extra people, which will decrease per-capita income and thus kill investment, freezing my development.

Taking them over piece by piece will be far too painful. Not so much time-wise, but in lives and money, as I'll have to fight massive wars for every few terriories.

 

[doublezero]

I wouldn't worry about needing to contain China. I've only seen China civilize itself once, out of at least 200 games. The Chinese AI isn't very adventurous. It will stay within its natural borders even if it does manage to become civilized. So leave it alone and it will leave you alone.

Even if you can't leave it alone, it's very unlikely to attack you in revenge. So when nobody else is guaranteeing its independence, go ahead and attack it and try to snatch a couple of provinces for yourself. This won't noticeably weaken China, but the extra resources and population will probably be useful to you.

 

[unmerged(37660)]

First year take thier capital and humiliate them. Get war rep plus Jinan, Qiqhar and Xian. The aristocrats there will devole into soldiers when you tax them at 100% which will give you hordes of you own chinese cavalry. Use your starting troops plus colonial cavalry you build from Samara to get the job done by the end of the first year. Rinse and repeat every 5 years.

Hammer

 

[Malch]

In regards to all them mentions of Badboy Wars: If you have clobbered some/all of the great powers already, they shouldn't be too much of an issue because the ai takes your Military score into account for Badboy Wars. In my game as Austria, I have almost annexed the USA and no one cries foul because they are weak comparatively.

Even if they did, it's just a colonial war.... no colonies, no problem.

 

[doublezero]

In regards to all them mentions of Badboy Wars: If you have clobbered some/all of the great powers already, they shouldn't be too much of an issue because the ai takes your Military score into account for Badboy Wars. In my game as Austria, I have almost annexed the USA and no one cries foul because they are weak comparatively.

Even if they did, it's just a colonial war.... no colonies, no problem.

That's true, if you have the highest military score in the world, the other Great Powers are going to be more afraid of attacking you, even when your BB is sky-high.

But if his strategy is to annex China, he's going to have sky-high BB and will probably get attacked by several countries, while all his divisions are in China crushing revolts. Most or all of his armies are probably 1 division, he's used up all his European manpower, and any new troops he can build will be Chinese natives.
He could consolidate all the regular troops into larger armies to fight the Great Powers, if he replaces them with natives to crush the revolts. An expensive strategy, considering he's already been neglecting his economy for years to focus on building his Chinese invasion force.

The BB wars will not be colonial. They will be Great Wars. Non-colonial. They will only be colonial if they are attacking him because they've guaranteed China's independence. But since he's already conquered China, they are going to attack him directly.

 

[doublezero]

I actually just did this; conquered China in one shot as Japan. Did it with 163 divisions in the Chinese theater. 40 of those are 1 division armies newly built for the sole purpose of crushing revolts.

China was mostly intact before I attacked. I already owned most of Manchuria, Taiwan Island and 3 southern provinces. The British own Hong Kong, Shaozhou & Shanghai.

Got around China's independence being guaranteed by attacking Xinjiang instead of China directly. Nobody was guaranteeing Xinjiang, but China had a defense treaty with it.

It took 10 months - might have taken longer, but Japan has gas and of course China doesn't.

 

[unmerged(94581)]

Even if you are militarily stronger than everybody else, does a high BB not make other nations unwilling to trade techs with you?

Since Victoria's research system seems to have been modeled in such a way that no country can "go it alone", this would be a big handicap, especially if you want to port the game into HoID.

 

[unmerged(94581)]

Given my personal contraints of not wanting to annex it wholesale and not really wanting to ignore it either, I'm considering the following "budget war".

I will fortify the provinces bordering China - 14 at the moment - and garrison them with 2-3 division armies, including engineers in every army. This gives 28-42 divisions. 6 more divisions in two reserve armies will move along the static lines to reinforce where the Chinese may be massing forces for an attack.

6-9 more divisions will comprise the first strike force, whose job it will be to capture the territory(ies) I want to demand.

6-9 more divisions will comprise an amphibious strike force tasked with capturing and holding Beijing by sea.

6 more divisions will be a secondary amphibious force, which will capture Taiwan and subsequently land wherever the mainland coast is least defended to try and capture as much land there as possible.

The idea is to avoid large-scale combat, or fight it on favourable terms, by forming a defensive static line on the land border. The goal is not to capture all of China, but to quickly capture the capital and just enough land to demand a province or two in a peace deal.

What do you guys think?

 

[doublezero]

Yes, you seem to understand what's going on and what you have to do. The military strategy you have described should work well. I don't know how early it is in the game, but if there's a huge technological gap, you wouldn't even need that many defenders on your border. As long as they're dug in, 1 or 2 divisions can withstand hordes of attacking irregulars, no problem. Anyways, the Chinese are going to be so confused by your multiple fronts they aren't going to be effective along the border.

Don't forget to bring a few warships for the amphibious landing.

And yes, if you annex all of China at once, too early in the game, you're going to have a hard time trading for tech for the rest of it. You'll probably fall behind unless you can afford to add tons of cash on top to sweeten the deal.
I wouldn't annex China in one shot unless I'm nearly equal with the other Great Powers in tech. Or ahead of them.

 

[unmerged(94581)]

Just one problem with that strategy - where in the world am I going to raise 72 extra divisions from?

It's 1869 in the game. The more I look at it the more I'm undecided whether it wouldn't be better to leave China alone for a lot longer. The cost is going to be just great. But at the same time British AI seems to have regularly scheduled wars with the Chinese, taking a territory or two each time. I can't help but wonder what this means for me in the long run.

 

[doublezero]

Just one problem with that strategy - where in the world am I going to raise 72 extra divisions from?

It's 1869 in the game. The more I look at it the more I'm undecided whether it wouldn't be better to leave China alone for a lot longer. The cost is going to be just great. But at the same time British AI seems to have regularly scheduled wars with the Chinese, taking a territory or two each time. I can't help but wonder what this means for me in the long run.

You don't need 163 divisions or even the 70-90 in your strategy if you're simply intending to defeat China and get something out of it. All you need in that case is to take Beijing. They will offer you at least one province for peace. But it might not be a very useful province. Of course, the more territory you control at the peace talks, the more they are likely to offer.

China is weak and unable to defend itself effectively. I've been able to get 50% warscore against it, in the early 1840s as Chile, a country with not even 2,000,000 people to use. Using 3 divisions and 1 warship.

So if you're worried about the British in China, match them. Try to take as many pieces of China as they are. It shouldn't be difficult, you won't even need ships if you're Russia.

 

[unmerged(94521)]

I agree with many of the above posters, but would like to add a few things:

1) Make sure to have several entry ways into China. The main problem with fighting China is the grotesque amount of rebels. Attack from several directions; Indochina, Korea, Mongolia, and small beach heads in China ceded in previous wars.

2) Chinese military suck. Unless you attack entrenched forces in mountains with forest you can easily defeat them with less than 1:1 odds. Focus on getting massive amounts of Cheap native divisions, here Indochina and Korea can come in handy.

3) Focus you army on the heavily populated areas that offers most resistance, and have small mobile divisions of hussars to capture backwater provinces in Mongolia and Central Asia.

4) I like to have 20 single divisons ready at the start of the war, and simply garrison the 20 provinces that rebels the most permanently with 1 divisons.

I think annexing China in one go, is needlessly impractical. Start by attacking them and occupy and get them to cede their capital and islands, and get them humiliated and get war reparations if possible. Then you have a much stronger base to attack them in a second war.

 

[Panzer Guderian]

Every time I play Victoria I have this urge to conquer China. Millions of pops waiting to make you money. Even when I play China I want to conquer myself! When I cannot resit the urge, this is what I do.

1. From the very beginning of the game, start planing. You do this by attacking uncivilized all around the world. Persia, Morocco, Tunis, Siam, Egypt, etc. Any uncivilized WHICH CAN BE RELEASED are your targets. Some uncivs, depending on your mod/version, cannot be released, like Patagonia once conquered. It may take several wars to fully annex some of them. Persia usually takes four or five wars, so plan ahead. The purpose of all this is to be able to nullify your Badboy score one China is conquered. You will need 125 or so, depending on how many provinces you have taken from China before the final kill. As Russia, you can get the Tzar of all the Slavs event with your beginning forces and then the Ottomans become uncivilized within the first year or so of the game.

2. Attack China early and often, taking as much you can. You can get in quick, take the capital and as many provinces you can. China will usually offer a better deal than what you can get in negotiations but may not be the provinces you want. Quantity is more important that quality. Be sure to Humiliate them the first war.

3. Final kill. Russia has the easiest course, since their mobilized troops can be deployed directly on the border and has the manpower needed. After that, any great power should not have too difficult a time of it. I have even done it as the Netherlands. I like large stacks of 20+ from the south and coast, smaller stacks from the north if I am Russia since I can follow with mobilized. From the south, my priorities are those mountainous tree covered provinces. China's super stacks can get annoying to root out if they can dig in on those. After that, I just take each province one by one, trying to herd China's armies, especially their regular troops, surrounded to be killed off.

Now, the reason for large stacks it that I drop off an infantry with Engineers usually in each province after I have taken it. Some provinces with really high population I drop two and give a crappy leader. Once garrisoned, you don't have to constantly micro-manage China. Indeed, once annexed, every Chinese province should be garrisoned. I then turn off the revolt message pop up and about every four to five months, reinforce the garrisons which are taking a beating. With that, China is no longer a pain in the arse! I leave the pop up message that a province is taken by rebels just in case and leave a few cav forces behind and extra garrison just in case.

4. Release your satellites. If you have a lot stocked up, you might be able to keep some of the better conquests, like Siam, Burma, etc. What you are doing is trading poor provinces for China's rich provinces, keeping you badboy score low so you can trade, make allies, etc and avoid the BB wars.

5. Enjoy the $$$ which China gives. Even if you went deep in depth, once the RGO's are expanded and RR built, China is your cash cow.

 

[doublezero]

There's an exploit where you attack China at the same time as some other country, the UK for example, and let them take Beijing while you take everything else. Britain will annex China but will only get Beijing. You get the rest with no badboy.

I've never used it, but if you're into exploits..

It's explained in one of these posts.