Five Short Films about... HoI

[Soapy Frog]

This is a semi-AAR. The results of 5 hand's off games running from '39 to '41, as a test of the AI's capabilities and tendencies. I ahve concetrate primarily on Europe.

Setting are Very Hard/Aggressive. Fog of War off. Human playing the lovely nation of Costa Rica, sitting on a beach, drinking rum out of a cocnut and watching the story unfold.

All 5 games have the following common themes:

- Germany NEVER waits more than 2 months before attacking it's next target. Sequence is ALWAYS Poland-France-Russia.

- Germany ALWAYS goes into Russia in April '40.

- Japan AWAYS conquers all of China, and usually a chunk of India

- Japan and USSR ALWAYS fight but the front is relatively static

- USA ALWAYS enters the war by very early '41 at the latest

- Italy ALWAYS leaves a large stack of air units sitting around near Warsaw.

- Russia ALWAYS gets toasted...

On the other hand, Germany ignore Holland and Denmark about 50% of the time, and Italy only wins in Africa every second game, otherwise they get cleaned up...

And now on with our story:

Game Number 1:

Germany starts to devour Poland, finishing by early October '39. Italy does not even wait before rolling in France, making huge gains. Germany barely has time to come rolling back, smashing through Belgium and the Maginot to reach Paris in December '39. No Vichy declared... By March '40, Italy holds all of France south of the Seine river, excluding Paris.

Germany kicks of Barbarossa in April '40. By September, all Russian resistance has ended... there are in fact absolutely NO units in the Western half of Russia whatsover. Despite this fact, and Russia's somewhat foolish decision to fight to the bitter end, Germany advanced very lazily. Out of curiosity I let this game run a little longer... it was not until '46 that German units reached the Pacific, although they got there without firing a shot (well there was a brief skirmish in Mongolia...)

Game Number 2:

Poland smacked down by Germany by early October. France is invaded by Spain, Italy and Germany simultaneously in November... each country secures about a 3rd of France with Germany once more taking Paris and most territory north of the Loire. No Vichy is declared. Continental France completely occupied by April '40 (France's best performance!)

Literally within days Russia is attacked, although it takes some time to build momentum... but when it does, look out! The Red Army ceases to exist as an effective force by August, when Stalingrad falls and the Soviets knuckle under, handing everything west of the Urals over to the Germans.

Game Number 3:

Poland is remarkably robust, lasting until November. Italy only manages to push slowly up the Rhone river before the Germans smash their way through to Paris on a broad front and imposes a Vichy settlement in March '40.

Once again the familiar April '40 Barbarossa operation comences. In fine fashion, the Germans eviscerate the Red Army... this time they take their time, and only in October do the Soviets surrender.

Game Number 4:

Poland is raidly decimated. Spain and Italy attack France but make only limited progress before Germany sweeps in and imposes Vichy in January '40 (record time!!). To fill in the gap before Operation Barbarossa, a few German corps take a vacation in Denmark, conquering it in February '40.

Once again, Russia is invaded in April '40. By October, the Red Army is on it's last legs, with Germany in possession of Leningrad and Moscow, and standing just outside an undefended Stalingrad. But Germany falls asleep! Russia takes advantage of the opportunity to slowly much on Finland... they do not finish their meal, however, since Germany comes out of it's daze in March '41, strolls into Stalingrad, and Russia surrenders... although this time fr some reason they keep a bunch of isolated provinces normally part of the peace deal... strange.

Game Number 5:

Poland is toasted quickly enough. Spain and Italy once again drive into France, making good progress, but Germany storms through Belgium and imposes Vichy in March '40, stripping them of most of their gains.

Guess what happens in April '40? Barbarossa!!!! I didn't see THAT coming. Interestingly THIS time Germany grinds forward much more slowly than before, suffering a few setbacks (like having half their airforce plus the Spanish and Italian airforces overrun ... ooops!). Nevertheless by October they hold Leningrad and Moscow.

In November in a surprise move, Denmark DoWs Germany and rolls into Lubeck... after the initial shock, however, the Germans annexed them in January. Still grinding forward in Russia, Germany can not seem to deliver the coup de grace to the Red Army.

The US invades Aarhus in February '41, apparently unconcerned about the Japanese Destroyer Flotilla cruising about the North Sea. They are kicked out of Aarhus by German countterattack in May, but invade Ronne in the Baltic and hold onto that. A second invasion of Aarhus fails mightily. Strangely, a British bomber squadron seems to have taken up residence in Hamburg, despite the German corps there. He sits there quite happily...

Finally, the Germans bulldoze there way into Stalingrad and the Russians throw in the towel... it is September '41, by FAR their best performance.

The END

Well that's it... not super detailed, no cast of thousands... but it does show the consistent points of AI behaviour.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

Hmmm. Seems that Stalin did not only purge his officers, but dismantled the Red Army and knocked every Soviet officer on his head.

And it seems the best solution for the player to play an Allied country, just to keep an aura of historicity alive.

 

[unmerged(6361)]

It seems to me that the problem may not be the weakness of the USSR but of the inabilaty of the allies (Britain/USA) to cause germany any problems on the western front which leaves the full force of the German military available to bash the red army.

 

[unmerged(11427)]

It looks like the odds are aginst the Allies. Not very historical...

Maybe Costa Rica played very important role during WW2, that I am not aware of.

 

[unmerged(11427)]

Good point Mkwin. What was the role of GB in all those games?

There is also nothing than looks like the Battle of Britain. Why Germany never tries to invade
GB? Is AI Goering smarter than in real life and knows that he is going to lose?

 

[unmerged(9895)]

this can say a few things about the game.

I dont think the "odds" are against the allies like it might seem to show, I just think that the AI has no clue on how to have troops travel from on continent to another if they need to be transported by ships.

The one thing I remember is that in Sytass's AAR he was able to conquer all of europe with his russian war machine, so it also shows that the soviet AI is unable to represent the real soviet union of the time, meaning that it should have a very, very large amount of troops.

The game might of had a few different endings if it was started in '36, giving some of the AI nations more time to prepare. Plus, a Multiplayer game in which all the players follow the same processes as the AI did (those things that have been seen as consistent, like the Poland-France-USSR path for Germany) would help to prove wether the nations have been unequally represented or wether it is just the weak AI making misstakes.

 

[Soapy Frog]

Fat: GB engaged in the typical strat bombing campaign, easily held off by a couple of fighters. Otherwise they would either gain or lose all of Africa fighting the Italians... except Libya, they always refused to enter more than two coastal areas in Libya.

No Battle of Britain. Germany pretty much pretended the UK wasn't there.

KrisKannon: Well, I can tell you form my own experience that defending France in '39 as a human player is obscenely difficult. I not saying difficult as in "I have trouble taking Berlin" I mean "I have trouble lasting until the very early stages of '40". And I am a HUMAN playing against the weak AI.

On the flip side, as Germany I can Vichy France by Sept. 8th.

This leaves me with the impression is that the German (and Italian and Japanese) armies are badly overpowered in the '39 scenario. Either they need to be weakened, or the French, British, Russian and Chinese armies need to be strengthened. Air power has to be somewhat curtailed (my personal "quick" solution would be to impose a 12 hour waiting period between air missions (excluding interception), if nothing else it would greatly help the manic strat bombing Allied AI.)

Furthermore, Forts and Alpine hexes should be enormously hard to crack. In every single game I have played (and the 5 abovementioned) Italy has blown across the French Alps, something that historically they were completely unable to do even though there were only 2(!) divisions defending it (in the game you'd be lucky to hold the line with 14-20 divs).

But this has been re-iterated in many different threads.

Given the fanatstic amount of modding it is possible to do (Paradox knows what makes a gamer tick! ) I will probably fine-tune the '39 scenario specifically and combat in general until I get something I am happy with.

 

[unmerged(11427)]

I've just noticed that the campaign in Norway is also missing.
Germany was very interested in securing Norway (protecting steel supply from Sweden, naval ports, air bases to bomb GB).
GB and France were seriously considering to invade Norway but Germans were faster.

I'm afraid that AI can't 'see' these fine strategic points and that a lot of stuff like that will be missing in HOI (Battle for tha Atlantic
will probably never occur in AI vs AI game). Since in WW2 strategic objectives were very important, that could make HOI unrealistic.

Back to Norway. What happend to them? Joined Axis or Allies, stayed neutral and nobody cared what they do?

 

[unmerged(7740)]

Also the big problem is coordination between allies (on whatever side). If you coordinate Brits and American attacks on Germany wiht situation on east front that would be something completely different.
Also if Italy could coordinate their attacks with germany...

 

[Almogavers]

The early attack on the Soviet Union is obviously due to the early fall of France. The resistance of France is a key issue for the later development of the game.

 

[unmerged(11812)]

Yeargh!

I'm currently doing the same thing as Costa Rica.

Difficulty and Aggressivness on the highest levels.

So far:

Japan just waved a magic wand and POOF, China was theirs. There is a stuborn pocket of resistance that has lasted until 1940 its one provence of 10 units. Japan is ignoring it except for a constant tactical bombing raid.

Germany told the Poles to screw themselves and ignored them totally while they went after France.

Now heres something interesting.

Germany didn't go after France until the Spanish civil war finished, and (get this) Franco won. Germany allied with Franco and went after france. Italy didn't join the alliance and instead spent its time beating the crap out of Ethiopia.

Japan put away its magic wand and started gobbling up islands in the Pacific, being careful to stay away from any allied islands.

Germany marched into France after allieing with Franco and smashed them readily. France freaked out and send a motorized division south where it spent its time kicking the crap out of what was left of Francos forces. Germany then vichied France, and Franco stopped trying after killing the last free french unit on the board (In Madrid) There are 3 Free French provinces remaining, all in Spain, but apparently Francos throwing a massive cocaine party and doesn't give a wooden nickel despite there being no troops defending them.

Germany finished off Belgium and made all of Northern Europe a nice shade of gray, then put a few troops on Polands boarder. After futzing around a bit and dragging Italy into the Axis, Germany invaded Poland and wiped them off the map. Italy busied itself with kicking Bulgaria around and as of june 40 hasn't made much headway.

After wiping Poland off its boots, Germany went after the Czechs (who had refused to give up any land or join them)

Germany finished them off just in time to be invaded by the Soviet Union, which had spent all that time building up.

Here's where it gets really stupid.

The Soviets largest concentrations of forces are either on the boarder of neutral countries or in Finland which it has decided is worth taking down.

The LEAST amount of Russian forces are on the German front, and despite this, they are winning. Not that they outnumber the Germans or anything, its just that Germany has 1 (one) divsion trying to stave off the Soviets 10 (ten) divisions while 34 (thirty four) YES THIRTY FOUR, German divisions sit on their butts in Stettin. Currently the Russians are next to Berlin.

Maybe Hitlers going to send them a hell of a surpise party, who knows? The guy in charge of this mega army is named Paulus.

Out of bordem I begin making plans to invade Nicaragua.

The Soviets push almost to the coast when disaster befalls them, they invaded the neutral countries in the SE of Europe and then pushed to the Italian boarder. Big mistake. Despite still being unable to kill off Bulgaria, Italy has 20 divisions waiting and proceeds to liberate Germany and kick Russia's butt a long way north. Italy is also cleaning the British up in South Africa.

As of July 41, Franco's party is still going, though he has managed to build up a force around Gibralter.

Britain meanwhile has been having a grand old time blowing Italy's fleet out of the water. Oh its also been bombing Roma. From london. I guess we know who invested in bomber tech.

As time goes on the European front stablizes with Germany neatly bisected all the way to the coast from Russia. Italy has stopped caring, and Stalin has concentrated his efforts in Finland. He was cautious enough to put solid lines of planes behind all the rivers in Russia though.

Over in the east things are more lively, though not in a way that makes sense. Russia is kicking the Japanese (who have by now joined in the Axis) and their massivly overwhelming army all over China.

America has superfortified Wake and California, and my war with Nicaragua is not going well.

Finally, in 42, the onslaught of Russia in China is stopped. Not because Japan did anything mind you, but rather, Stalin ran out of enough units to maintain a solid front. Still in Stettin: 34 units.

Back to watching.

 

[Soapy Frog]

Merad: sounds like you did a '36 start. VERY VERY different.

Almogavers: Yes it is likely France's rapid fall is having an impact... however I wonder, even if France lasted until June '40 (Historical) you would see an immediate DoW on Russia by Germany that same month or shortly thereafter.

Since Germany always wins this war, then it's easy to see why the AI is making this decision What needs to happen is Russia needs to be much much scarier in '39 so that Germany feels the need to spend time building up and consolidating it's gains before rushing in....

Fat: Norway joined the allies diplomatically once, otherwise remained neutral. Yugoslavia also would sometimes join the Axis.

 

[unmerged(12261)]

Two questions regarding the German AI in this scenario:

1. Is there any reason to believe that Germany shouldn't march all over everyone right through 1940? It pretty much happened that way in reality. So far playing as Germany I've done the same thing myself, the first time installing a puppet gov't in Russia by late 1940 after taking the Vichy solution in France in early '40. The second time (still in progress) I'm trying to leave the Soviets alon if possible, and am building a large contingent of paratrooper/transports to invade the UK after I take France. The only problem is that the UK, France, and USA all DW'd me in late '38 after I annexed Slovakia (every even up to that point followed actual historical events/dates) so I'm swing into France throughthe low countries, while using my minor country allies units, some lower tech inf/arm/mech/mot units and my beloved paratroopers to take out Poland before I was offered the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact... Can't wait to see the Soviet reaction.

2. Does Germany ever commence Operation Sealion in mid/late 1940 instead of going after the Soviets? In reality Hitler turned towards Russia in '41 (Barbarosa) only after preparation for Sealion were delayed into the fall of 1940. I haven't heard of Sealion being launched yet by German AI. It's as if the event doesn't exist (hmm.. I guess I should go look now that I mention it).

 

[Soapy Frog]

djbasham: In '39 scenario, I have never seen Germany deviate from Poland/France/Russia except once to take out Denmark before Russia. Certainly no Sealion.

Also you should read your history. The French campaign took 6 weeks, kicking off in May '40 after a 9 month(!!) build up. After France, it was not until June '41 that Germany was even remotely ready to take on Russia, and as it turns out they weren't REALLY ready becuase after 4 years the Russians were in Berlin!

This does not relate well to 5 out of 5 games where Russia gets conquered, sometimes within months, after being attacked April '40, nor does it relate well to Germany & Italy happily rolling over France in the winter months of '39/'40.

There are reasons why history happened the way it did... I'm not saying it could not have happened differently (and in fact HoI is a great way to expore that) I am saying that in fact, the reasons for the historical events are not modeled in the game and so can be effectively ignored.

Winter and mud are not well modelled. Penalties for fighting in winter and mud conditions are not severe enough. Alpine areas are to easy to take even when quite heavily defended. The Maginot line and forts in general should be very costly to take. The German and especially Italian armies should be proportionally less powerfull...

I am repeating myself, but I feel like it needs repeating. I think it is very important for this game to have a balanced '39 scenario, since that is what a large proportion of wargamers are going to come into this game expecting and wanting.

 

[unmerged(12261)]

So, where was I incorrect on my history? Germany rolled through Europe through 1940 (May 10 started invasion of France - yep 6 weeks is considered "rolling through"). Sealion was not ready by late'40 (September 17th Hitler called it off) and they started preparations instead to go after Russia, which was hit in '41 with Barbarossa (June 22).

Anyway, Sealion in 1940 was just a pipedream since there was no plan to deal with the British Navy, and air supremacy was not guaranteed. If fact German invasion flotillas we attacked an damaged by RAF night bombing over occupied France on the same day the operation was cancelled. It would be nice through to see HOI attempt to deal with the UK at some point. Or is the German AI smarter than the reast of us.... Skip the BoB and go straight after the commies...

DB

Originally posted by Soapy Frog
djbasham: In '39 scenario, I have never seen Germany deviate from Poland/France/Russia except once to take out Denmark before Russia. Certainly no Sealion.

Also you should read your history. The French campaign took 6 weeks, kicking off in May '40 after a 9 month(!!) build up. After France, it was not until June '41 that Germany was even remotely ready to take on Russia, and as it turns out they weren't REALLY ready becuase after 4 years the Russians were in Berlin!

This does not relate well to 5 out of 5 games where Russia gets conquered, sometimes within months, after being attacked April '40, nor does it relate well to Germany & Italy happily rolling over France in the winter months of '39/'40.

There are reasons why history happened the way it did... I'm not saying it could not have happened differently (and in fact HoI is a great way to expore that) I am saying that in fact, the reasons for the historical events are not modeled in the game and so can be effectively ignored.

Winter and mud are not well modelled. Penalties for fighting in winter and mud conditions are not severe enough. Alpine areas are to easy to take even when quite heavily defended. The Maginot line and forts in general should be very costly to take. The German and especially Italian armies should be proportionally less powerfull...

I am repeating myself, but I feel like it needs repeating. I think it is very important for this game to have a balanced '39 scenario, since that is what a large proportion of wargamers are going to come into this game expecting and wanting.

 

[unmerged(1279)]

Does the German AI expend the resources necessary to field the air and submarine forces that historically were spent in an effort to quell Britian?

 

[Soapy Frog]

Gauldor: The German AI does build subs and uses them, but does not undertake any aggressive air actions against GB.

djbasham: My point is that what happend over the span of 2.5 years historically, the German AI acheives in less than a year in most cases, and a human player can do it in LESS THAN A MONTH!

So, yes there is a lot of reason to beleive that Germany should be much less powerfull. The fact that YOU yourself installed a puppet government in Russia in 1940, and the AI, crippled though it is can perform similar feats, indicates to me that the German army is WAAAY overpowered in relation to it's neighbours.