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jez9999

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May 14, 2013
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So I was trying to form the HRE really quickly, within 100 years, as Burgundy. It was pretty difficult and I decided to restart. Then I remembered an idea I'd read somewhere on the web for forming the HRE ultra-fast. You start as Bohemia, "lose" a war to an Orthodox state, become Orthodox as part of your tribute, then get all the Imperial Authority you need - the bit that usually takes ages - by just enforcing religious unity. I assumed it wouldn't work because the "Enforce religious unity" button would only appear once Protestantism had broken out and almost didn't bother, but I thought I'd just try it anyway. Nope! Turns out that button's available from the start, and this strategy works. It's likely the fastest possible way to form the HRE. I did it within about 40 game years, and if you refined the strategy you could probably just about get it done in 30.

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Formed from a Bohemia-led HRE:
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As the strategy involves enforcing religious unity on the vast majority of HRE states to get the necessary Imperial Authority, the territory has been half-converted to Orthodox already:
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The state is therefore Orthodox, and as it was formed by Bohemia, Czech (West Slavic)! Only got cores on Bohemia, Brandenburg, Thuringia, Austria, Bavaria, Milan & Aquelia (lucky we got Treviso off Venice), and a few others though so most of the empire (about 5/8ths) is uncored:
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I was thinking of diplo-annexing Burgundy (or maybe Switzerland) to get lots more cores (your HRE cores on any countries directly touching yours, for some reason), but it would've meant waiting another 6 years and I didn't want to delay forming the HRE that long.

My next goal is, given how early it is, to see whether we can basically stop European colonization. We need to quickly break up and/or take the coastal territories of France, England, Scotland, Castille, Portugal, and the Scandinavian states. It'd be interesting to see a game where the New World stays virgin. The problem's gonna be the lack of CBs on the necessary nations, and infamy reduction. The game really wants you to Holy War with the Muslims! As you can imagine, Republican Dictatorship (bringing Imperialism CB) is miles off. Heck, Noble Republic is still quite far off. Unum Sanctum could be a good bet, given that we're not Catholic and they are. Still quite a bit of infamy, though.

Longer-term, we may try for the elimination of all non-Orthodox Christianity. I'll post updates on this. :p
 
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Strategy

So I'm gonna give a bit of a summary of the strategy for achieving this feat here. Quite an interesting challenge for EU3 veterans only, I'd say. But it works.

Note that the steps labeled '(Orthodoxy)' only apply if you want to convert your entire empire from Catholic to Orthodox once you've formed it, which I'm doing as I think it's an interesting idea.

For starters, play as Bohemia. You start out as Emperor, and you need to be Emperor to push Orthodox religion on the HRE electors - they'll never vote for a heretic.
Although, it might work - possibly even better actually - playing as Burgundy, because it takes about 20 years anyway to butter up enough various HRE states to accept your first Imperial Reform, and Bohemia's leader tends to die within about that period of time. You could get elected as Emperor, and delay your change to Orthodox until then. Still, for this attempt, I played as Bohemia.

Keep restarting until you start out with the "Relations with the Habsburgs" mission; this lets you quickly drop 2 infamy later on if you need to (infamy is poisonous to various aspects of forming the HRE, and staying at ZERO infamy is highly desirable).

There shouldn't be a need to ally with any large nations, for defensive purposes. The only alliances formed should be with small nations you diplo-vassalize (and possibly Austria, who can be quite useful in wars with states like Hungary, because they're right next door to you).
Normally, I'd say that allying with and diplo-vassalizing lots of small states within the HRE is bad for forming the HRE, because it tends to ossify things; you want wars to happen so states can take territory resulting in Imperial Liberation CBs that you can then use to get Imperial Authority. But because this strategy lets you get all your Imperial Authority through enforcing religious unity, this is no problem. Ally with small states, form royal marriages, and diplo-vassalize away! The only problem is that it somewhat lowers your relations with other states when you diplo-vassalize, so I actually only did it once or twice so as to keep relations with many HRE states very high; 150 or more is ideal.

Always accept royal marriages - especially within the HRE - to both indirectly (through improved relations) and directly increase the chances of Imperial Reforms being accepted. Also, try to create as many royal marriages yourself as possible. Marry anyone and everyone (within the HRE).

(Orthodoxy) Don't go more innovative until much later after you've passed the decisions that give you more missionaries (you'll be needing A LOT of them to convert Europe to Orthodox); staying at Bohemia's initial +1 means your tech isn't hurt TOO much, but you can quickly switch to +2 to get your extra missionary decisions, then start going more innovative after that.

(Orthodoxy) Don't adopt the NI Church Attendance Duty until you've passed the Act of Uniformity, as this NI stops that idea, which is a nice one as it gives extra missionaries.

Split that big Bohemian army into 2 immediately and move them to different provinces or it will take constant attrition; still, the Emperor Bohemia should maintain a nice big army always, in several stacks - as large an army as possible without requiring crazy minting and inflation for Bohemia; I suggest 3 stacks of 3 cavalry and 9 infantry each, for 36,000 troops total, though you'll probably have to lower Bohemia's military support limit to even break even on this most of the time. Bohemia is what I'd classify as a 3 on the 1-to-5 wealth scale; not dirt poor, but not filthy rich either. It can just about support a somewhat big army as Emperor, but try and field anything like your HRE Emperor force limits of 200,000+ and you'll be bankrupt overnight - it's no Burgundy (seriously, do they print all the world's money in Antwerp?) Early on in the game, many territories have a support limit below 12, so be careful which ones you step on so as to avoid nasty attrition where possible.

Don't forget to wait for 4 magistrates and expand the bureaucracy before doing anything else with magistrates or changing national focus (always worth it and I often forget!)

Declare a war of aggression with Muscowy on day 1, changing the sliders to max stability until you get to +3 (also, cancel Silesia's vassalization). After a month, declare on Silesia (reconquest CB) and annex them ASAP. Bohemia could do with being a bit bigger to support the large army. In my game, I also took a couple of states off of Hungary for 8 badboy, but this was probably unnecessary.

As soon as possible, "lose" the war (haha) with Muscowy by offering tribute and converting yourself to Orthodox.

Get a level 6 diplomat as soon as possible so that, combined with your diplomatically-mediocre leader, you can lose nearly 1 badboy per year. Get to zero infamy as quickly as possible, and stay there.

Now, enforce religious unity on at least 3 of the electors; the smaller/weaker they are, the more likely they are to accept. Maybe try Saxony, Mainz, and Trier.
I won't lie, this is where some luck manipulation is needed in order to form the HRE super-fast. You won't get a 'yes' every time, and going to war to enforce religious unity is slow, painful, and ruins your relations with all the states who enter the war. When it came to enforcing religious unity on states, and proposing imperial reforms, I may have taken steps to increase their chances of succeeding - royal marriages, improving relations to over 150, allying, maintaining zero infamy, etc. - but in the end I just saved and reloaded until the decision was successful. You can't get things done quickly otherwise. You generally want the chances of success to be at least 'Unlikely'; as you go on and improve relations further, it will often be 'Maybe'. That'll only take a few rolls of the dice at most.

If your leader dies before this point (don't make him a general - that increases his chances of dying) and Austria or Burgundy become the Emperor, you're screwed; try again.

Here's the great part - you don't even need to vassalize any electors in order to basically guarantee re-election from now on! The Orthodox electors cannot vote for heretics (ie. Catholics), so as long as you don't get any large states such as Burgundy, Austria, Bavaria, Milan, or Brandenburg to convert, the only choices they have are you, and distant second places who are either penalized for being too small, or not even being HRE members! No associated badboy for vassalizing electors is a major plus. I managed to get myself converted to Orthodox and convert 3 electors within 5 game years. As Bohemia is an elector and there are only 7 electors, this basically guarantees you'll always get a majority.
It's quite amusing to mouseover the electors to see their ratings, and see that the Orthodox electors' closest candidate to you is someone like Muscowy!

With permanent HRE Emperor status ensured, you can now get on with securing Imperial Authority and passing Imperial Reforms. When you get a NI (government tech 4), go for Military Drill so that your already-big armies will be even more likely to win pretty much any war you're likely to get into (stay stronger than Austria, at least).

Any extra cores gained from the "claims on our rivals" or "border dispute" events should probably be ignored until after the HRE is formed. Ideally you want to stay out of wars if at all possible until the HRE is formed; they waste time, and hugely damage your relations with anyone who gets into the war on the other side. You need to keep very good relations with the large majority of HRE states, so you never want to go to war with any of them, even on an Imperial Liberation CB or something (you'll still be against some HRE states, which will hugely damage your relations). It's even more important with this strategy to keep extremely good relations with other HRE states (ideally over 150), because when considering whether to vote for your Imperial Reforms, there's a small penalty for having a differing religion. Not too bad, but certainly not in your favour.

During the time you're converting states to Orthodox at 10 Imperial Authority per time, you should be systematically going round HRE member states and improving your relations with them. First concentrate on the ones that are already good, and get them to over 150 (check your country's relations list and order from good to bad). Then look at the ones below 100 and get them to over 150. Then, try and get them all to over 150. Also setup as many royal marriages as possible, and ally with many small states if it's convenient. Numbers of diplomats are always the bottleneck here, especially as you lose your +2 diplomat/year bonus that you get as Catholic, but you still get a decent enough number per year as the Emperor. If you happen to get into a war, that's +1 extra diplomat per year too. Maybe try and stretch it out for the extra diplomats.

Bestowing imperial authority seems to increase relations a bit quicker than giving gifts, but don't use that too often as you need most of the Imperial Authority for the reforms. Maybe use 20 to 30 Imperial Authority over time for increasing relations. You should also maintain a large sphere of influence (about 10 states) and hire a level 6 diplomat to greatly improve your diplomatic chances.
Asking for military access (and giving it, sometimes) is also a great idea both for boosting relations... and just to be able to move your troops around the HRE easily.

Don't worry so much about good relations with big states (6 provinces or more) like Burgundy, Austria, and Switzerland - they'll almost certainly refuse any Imperial Reforms (screw them).
Well, at least leave those guys until last when improving HRE state relations. In the end, they're all important really. Try to keep them over zero, at least.

Also, don't enforce religious unity if your Imperial Authority is already at 91% or higher; it maxes out at 100%, so either bestow some Imperial Authority on improving relations, or use it to implement an Imperial Reform.

You can try to implement an Imperial Reform when your Imperial Authority is at least 50. However, ONLY DO SO when Imperial Authority is at 51 or higher (except for the very last reform, forming the HRE state), because you need at least 1 Imperial Authority to execute the 'enforce religious unity' decision and get more Imperial Authority.

If the reform fails, honestly, you should save beforehand and load and re-roll the dice. Look in the log at who voted in favour and who against, and count the for/against numbers. If it's close, re-roll the dice a few times. If not, butter up some more states to love you and vote in favour. Note down a list of non-large states who voted against. Some will just be bad luck, but in most cases you can go down that list and improve relations with that state to over 150, as well as forming a royal marriage.

Implementing reforms should get easier over time, as you're converting more and more states to Orthodox so you don't get the "different religion" penalty. After a few successful reforms, the rest should just all pass (assuming you stay at zero badboy and don't get into wars with them). Nevertheless, ensure very good relations with all states (small and large) so that the penultimate reform doesn't result in any states going to war with you.
You pretty much want the entire HRE to be one big incestuous lovefest by that point.

Finally, enact Renovatio Imperii and form the HRE! It'll be an Orthodox Slavic state with its capital in Prague... not quite the characteristics typically associated with the HRE. :)

(Orthodoxy) You want to get those extra missionaries to convert tons of Catholic territories to Orthodox, but some are only available as a Catholic state. To temporarily be a Catholic state, "lose" a war with a Catholic state, much as you did at the beginning with Muscowy, and offer them tribute, converting yourself to Catholic. Once you get the decisions for the extra missionaries, "lose" a war with an Orthodox state to switch back to Orthodox. The same method can be used to convert temporarily to Protestant/Reformed.

(Orthodoxy) Wait until government tech 15, get the innovative slider to +2, and pass the Conventicle Act and the De Heretico Comburendo Act (need to be Catholic).

(Orthodoxy) Conquesting Jerusalem and Mecca is also a good idea for more missionaries.

(Orthodoxy) Other good decisions for religious conversion: Establish Sunday schools, Act of Uniformity (must not have the national idea Church Attendance Duty), Advancement Of Religion Act.

(Orthodoxy) For even MORE missionaries, wait until government tech 21, and pass the Test Act and the Popery Act (no slider requirements, need to be Protestant/Reformed).
 
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I've stopped the colonisers as Burgundy (and gone on to WC), so you might have a chance. Definitely doable with cheesing unions and inheritances the same way you cheesed the HRE.

The normal opening move is to guarantee Granada and take its CoT and several other coastal provinces off Castille when they attack it. That will probably result in them attacking you again to try and get the provinces back. Lots of Castillian coast from defensive wars, plus the possibility of bits of Portugal too if they joined in on the side of Castille. You might be too big for that to work though I see Granada still exists in your game.

Its almost certainly too late to stop Portugal exploring, and that means you'll have to colonise it a big fraction of the Atlantic coast yourself to seal colonisers out rather than just taking the European coast to seal them in. Incite natives, conquer coastal pagans, seize or burn European colonies.
 
Too late to stop Portugal exploring? I don't think so. They haven't even colonized The Azores yet. A couple of wars on Unum Sanctum and they'll be fully annexed.

Did you really go on to WC? I tried a WC as Burgundy and badboy stopped me way before I could do it, even using aggressive tactics like taking on the hordes, holy war/colonial conquest CB, etc. In the end I disabled the negative events for very high badboy and did a WC but my badboy at the end was over 1000.

UPDATE: I think I see what you mean about "exploring" - as in, revealing terra incognita with their ships? Well sure, but if I'm going to quite quickly take out the European coast (and then all of Europe), so what? They still won't be able to colonize.
 
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Painted the world burgundy just before time ran out.
If you haven't read them, the Prawnstar AARs have details on how to be BB efficient enough to do it.
There's a lot of coastal provinces @2BB each. Only some will take QftNW and explore, but everyone will colonise once the maps spread.
Annexation is full price on heresy suppression too, so those 2 wars will cost you a lot of BB.
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Right, that's pretty impressive. I guess the mistake I made in my attempt was not to immediately try and stop European colonization; that meant I had to take a ton of colony provinces for high BB. Would you say that kind of WC is viable as any nation other than Burgundy? You didn't form the HRE there; I guess you dismantled it. Maybe you could do the same thing as Castille? Possibly England or France?

The prawnstar AAR you refer to, I assume, is The Historic Inevitability of Epic Failure. Sadly that seems to have been lost to time; it's not on this forum anymore, and archive.org only has the first 2 pages of it. Shame it wasn't comprehensively backed up.
 
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Castille, England and France all work better than Burgundy, because thats one less of the 4 early QftNW nations that needs to be taken out fast. Ottomans and the Golden Horde can do it too, quite likely the Timurids as well.
Being the Emperor solves manpower and WE problems. Having the manpower to actually recruit to your force limit in early expansion is really hard in 5.2 unless you have the HRE to call on. I sucked the mercenary pool dry before I became the Emperor. Eventually I dismantled it, but being Emperor is very useful in the first 100-150 years. Sooner or later its necessary to become a Republic, and then the HRE needs to get dismantled.
The AAR is still there in the AAR forum, at least the text is, the pictures are lost.
 
Portugal missions are pretty terrible. Nothing in the same league as the free cores and BB that the others get to turbocharge their early expansions.
Its also relatively small and lacking in manpower. It would be a lot harder, but I've never had a serious attempt to see just how far it could go.
 
Yeah, I agree. "Become king of Gonder", lol. I think you could do the "guarantee Granada and take out Castille quickly" thing, and have a bunch of non-cored provinces in Iberia. Destroy Andalucia and have Lisbon as a half-decent CoT with 5 merchants. Also you could have a good go at Morocco and take out the whole north African coast on holy war CB, going into the Arabian peninsula. But after that you'd get a bit stuck taking any more European territory. Where's the CB for it? Unless you changed to Orthodox and used Unum Sanctum, lol.
 
Its Aragon that has the Gonder mission.
CBs aren't that different for Portugal after taking out Castille than Castille after taking out Portugal. You do things like ally with someone the French/English are attacking and use the alliance CB. Force France to release lots of countries and try to help Scotland to eat as much of England as possible. You just don't have as much cash or troops and take more BB and hence longer to get to that point.
 
So, I just gave up on trying to stop the colonists on my HRE game. I worked very hard to take the coastline of Iberia and France and had started to take the south of England, but England started colonizing Greenland and there aren't enough natives there to incite to get rid of their colony. Infuriating!!! I guess I should've prioritized England more, but I only had Unum Sanctum CB. Very very hard to take enough of their territory before their colonial range gets far enough. And sure, I could've burned their colony, but the culture stays British on the culture map, so it ruins it. I'm quite tempted to just cheat and play as England, and ruin their economy.
 
Greenland starts out as known territory to Norway so you'd have to colonise that yourself because everyone will be trying to colonise it once maps spread. Those areas are actually Nordic colonies that died shortly before the game period begins, not pristine native areas.
You can ruin the English just by keeping them occupied and refusing to make peace, just leave one siege that never completes so the forced white peace never happens. That would force them to stop maintaining colonies and they would attrit down to the point where one spy would wipe them out (500 natives will take 100 off the population per incitement).
 
Well, they seem to have stayed naturally un-colonized for a long time in my game then because they're only just getting colonized by England in 1570 or so. I've gone back to an older save and taken the entire west coast of Britain. Looks like Greenland is terra incognita for them for now, but it won't be for much longer and they can almost reach South America from London (or maybe Calais). Gonna see whether I can DoW on them in 10 years and screw the infamy limit, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's at least another 2 or 3 wars before I can fully annex them. And Norway is probably gonna colonize Greenland, so I might well be screwed no matter what.
 
Greenland starts out as known territory to Norway so you'd have to colonise that yourself because everyone will be trying to colonise it once maps spread. Those areas are actually Nordic colonies that died shortly before the game period begins, not pristine native areas.
You can ruin the English just by keeping them occupied and refusing to make peace, just leave one siege that never completes so the forced white peace never happens. That would force them to stop maintaining colonies and they would attrit down to the point where one spy would wipe them out (500 natives will take 100 off the population per incitement).
After 5 years without a battle, the game will automatically declare "white peace". I had a couple of lengthy sieges end that way, one of them where I was besieging a level 3 fortification at 75% siege progress when the war against that OPM suddenly ended. Really annoying, because I needed that particular province to complete a direct land route, and then had to wait another 5 years to start another war and siege.

I believe the natives will wipe out colonists at the rate of 10% of their own number, with the number of natives rounded up to the nearest thousand, or something like that. 500-1000 natives will kill off 100 colonists per uprising, up to 2000 natives will kill off 200, and so on. I may have the rounding wrong, but that's my current assumption.
 
After 5 years without a battle, the game will automatically declare "white peace". I had a couple of lengthy sieges end that way, one of them where I was besieging a level 3 fortification at 75% siege progress when the war against that OPM suddenly ended. Really annoying, because I needed that particular province to complete a direct land route, and then had to wait another 5 years to start another war and siege.

I believe the natives will wipe out colonists at the rate of 10% of their own number, with the number of natives rounded up to the nearest thousand, or something like that. 500-1000 natives will kill off 100 colonists per uprising, up to 2000 natives will kill off 200, and so on. I may have the rounding wrong, but that's my current assumption.
Not exactly, because I had a situation where there were only 200 natives at an AI's colony. Inciting them did reduce the colony population but only by something small like 40.
 
After 5 years without a battle, the game will automatically declare "white peace". I had a couple of lengthy sieges end that way, one of them where I was besieging a level 3 fortification at 75% siege progress when the war against that OPM suddenly ended. Really annoying, because I needed that particular province to complete a direct land route, and then had to wait another 5 years to start another war and siege.

I believe the natives will wipe out colonists at the rate of 10% of their own number, with the number of natives rounded up to the nearest thousand, or something like that. 500-1000 natives will kill off 100 colonists per uprising, up to 2000 natives will kill off 200, and so on. I may have the rounding wrong, but that's my current assumption.
It doesn't work if you actually want to win the siege but to just keep the war going, stop sieging every so often and then reimpose it.
 
It doesn't work if you actually want to win the siege but to just keep the war going, stop sieging every so often and then reimpose it.
That's not very effective when you're besieging the only province (or only remaining unoccupied province) of the opposing side, such as trying to vassalize an OPM for later diplo-annexation, trying to force a personal union, or trying to force-convert them. The moment you lift the siege, the status resets, even though the garrison size doesn't recover instantly.

I'm not sure how it rounds numbers under 1000, but 4000 natives will kill off 400 colonists, and 1000 natives will kill 100, a 10:1 ratio. I'm not 100% positive, but I THINK I recall an incident where something like 2700 natives eliminated 300 colonists, not 270, so there appears to be some kind of rounding.
 
That's not very effective when you're besieging the only province (or only remaining unoccupied province) of the opposing side, such as trying to vassalize an OPM for later diplo-annexation, trying to force a personal union, or trying to force-convert them. The moment you lift the siege, the status resets, even though the garrison size doesn't recover instantly.

I'm not sure how it rounds numbers under 1000, but 4000 natives will kill off 400 colonists, and 1000 natives will kill 100, a 10:1 ratio. I'm not 100% positive, but I THINK I recall an incident where something like 2700 natives eliminated 300 colonists, not 270, so there appears to be some kind of rounding.
There are normally two days of colonist bashing at 10% per day for 20% total. The day they spawn and the following day when they despawn. The last 10 colonists are a bit harder to wipe out, it needs to be taken somewhat lower or the colony gets rounded up to 10 colonists left.
 
Well, I managed to get it done in the end, with my desired final HRE borders and with no colonialism (save for The Azores, The Canaries, Madeira, and Cape Verde, all of which have little to no natives and it's pretty much impossible to stop the AI colonizing them so we got there first), by loading from that older savegame referenced above, and then being extremely aggressive about terminating England, Sweden, and Denmark early.

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It's a very hard grind and you need to lose lots of infamy, pretty much over the entire rest of the game. We got some good holy war territory for low BB, but mostly it was the odd reconquest from a border dispute, and imperialism CB. I kind of wish I hadn't released a bunch of vassals earlier in the game to lower our BB just below the infamy limit because in the end, we had to eat them all up again at 4 infamy apiece and it put us way over the infamy limit in order for us to core on them in time - there was some very tiresome high BB events to deal with for quite a few years as a result. I'd rather have just become dishonourable scum earlier on and dealt with the consequences. Lesson learnt, I suppose.

Still, the end result is quite fun. Lovely clean HRE borders, ALL non-Orthodox Christianity eliminated (even the couple of Japanese provinces that had flipped to Catholic were converted back to Shinto), and a virgin New World and Africa.

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It's very odd looking at the Americas with only the native tribes there!

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Africa was kept completely African in culture, except for the parts that start out Turko-Semitic (and Majerteen, colonized by the Ottomans, which I ensured was handed over to our vassalized Ethiopia). As a side note, the Ethiopian AI is totally useless. I don't know whether it's because of Ethiopia's circumstances, or some country's AIs are basically programmed to do nothing, but they never convert territory to their religion, never send a single colonist, and often can't keep control of their territory. We had to station a unit there to deal with their rebels and stop their territory defecting to Mutapa! Still, it was the only Orthodox state there so I felt like having them as a vassal buffer was a good idea.

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Virgin east Asia and Oceania too...

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And good old Animism and Shamanism remained to their original extents...

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Another thing of note: I did indeed try the trick of converting back to Catholicism at government level 15, passing their religious decisions to get extra missionaries, then at government level 21, converting to Protestant/Reformed and taking their extra missionary decisions. It all works (well, except for embracing the counter-reformation - as soon as your HRE converts back to Orthodox, that ends and you lose that bonus). Those, combined with the 3 conquests of Rome, Jerusalem, and Mecca, as well as Divine Supremacy, give a crazy amount of missionaries even when you're at full Innovative!!! Oh, and we got more missionaries from The Pentarchy, which is an Orthodox event I hadn't even known about.

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End troop numbers were about 750k but could've easily been within force limits at over a million. All the African and American nations were in my sphere of influence to ensure they didn't get attacked. Even east Asia didn't really seem to get colonized by Muslims or Asians; looks like pretty much only the Europeans bother (although the Ottomans tried to colonize eastern Africa a couple of times, that was the only time I noticed non-Europeans colonizing).

Trade (we owned all the European CoTs of course:
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Tech:
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And the timelapses for country:
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... and religion:
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Bohemia to Orthodox HRE, voila! Albeit with some degree of luck manipulation along the way.
 
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