France can cancel WWII

[twinxor]

So I fired up a historical ironman France game with version 1.16.6.ea80. When the Rhineland focus came round I told Germany they'd better not try it!

But Britain was like naww we got other fish to fry

sooo then Germany backed down. for good

Then I didn't do anything for 4 years. I guess losing the Rhineland crisis cancels most of their focuses.Finally Germany went to war with the Soviets in 1940, though Poland was still independent and at peace. WAD?

 

[Reni Malaj]

If you 'Go with Britain', you must go with Britain. Did you have historical turned on?

 

[Joshua Happytree]

So I fired up a historical ironman France game with version 1.16.6.ea80. When the Rhineland focus came round I told Germany they'd better not try it! But Britain was like naww we got other fish to fry. sooo then Germany backed down. for good. Then I didn't do anything for 4 years. I guess losing the Rhineland crisis cancels most of their focuses.Finally Germany went to war with the Soviets in 1940, though Poland was still independent and at peace. WAD?

Why it shouldn't be WAD?

1. You took completely ahistorical decision, what's wrong with getting ahistorical results?
2. IMHO devs clearly tried to still force a historical outcome by Britain refusing to join the war.
3. Arguably that's what would have happened should UK and France have taken an issue with Rhineland. Germany's army was a far cry from French one alone due to Versailles limitations save for the two combined so she had had to back down or face a total annihilation on the battlefield.

 

[twinxor]

Why it shouldn't be WAD?

1. You took completely ahistorical decision, what's wrong with getting ahistorical results?
2. IMHO devs clearly tried to still force a historical outcome by Britain refusing to join the war.
3. Arguably that's what would have happened should UK and France have taken an issue with Rhineland. Germany's army was a far cry from French one alone due to Versailles limitations save for the two combined so she had had to back down or face a total annihilation on the battlefield.

I mean, I appreciate that France historically chose to fold in the Rhineland crisis, but if they had done so (as easily as clicking one event option!) it's hard to believe it would prevent any conflict between Germany and its neighbors. I know it's not that hard to derail history in HOI4, but this is too easy and really should have been addressed in last year's Germany path. Just give Germany an option to do its other goals and return to the Rhineland later, if nothing else.

 

[kettyo]

The Rheinland becomes militarized automatically as Germany goes to war with anyone so it's not much of an issue.

 

[twinxor]

The Rheinland becomes militarized automatically as Germany goes to war with anyone so it's not much of an issue.

Sure, skipping WWII is not much of an issue in this WWII game. Is there a gas leak in here, or something?

 

[Findell_HOI]

Sure, skipping WWII is not much of an issue in this WWII game. Is there a gas leak in here, or something?

They will eventually do the other focuses if they win against the soviets and go to war with the rest of the world but only after the soviets fall usually.

 

[Cornutus]

You could use the First Anschluss attempt in 1935 I believe, when Mussolini blocked Germany's claim on Austria as an example showing that a "Second chance" is to be deserved for such things.

The second Anschuss in 1938 still worked though, as an agreement with "torso-man" worked.

 

[kettyo]

Sure, skipping WWII is not much of an issue in this WWII game. Is there a gas leak in here, or something?

As far as i remember communist France can get a wargoal against Germany even from focuses so you can start it yourself.

Essentially you was the one who cancelled it so you need to do measures for it to happen in a different way.

Go communist and declare on them or join the Comintern and fight them when they attack Russia.

 

[Joshua Happytree]

skipping WWII is not much of an issue in this WWII game. Is there a gas leak in here, or something?

1. It's actually YOU who "skip the war", not AI You know the path that leads to war yet you decide not to follow it. Basically you say you should have an ability to skip the war for as long as you want but AI shouldn't.
2. It's a question of personal preference. You yourself want AI to be forced to go to war, and do so ahistorically by now, even if you yourself choses not to do so. There might be other people who'd prefer AI to stay on the side of the peace for some time.
3. If a human player takes so drastic ahistorical decisions then AI may do so as well so I haven't tested but I believe the war is still inevitable.
   1. AI is pretty much forced to declare war on focus-provided CBs. GER has plenty -- Sudetenland, Danzig, Vienna and Ljubliana awards, "Around Magonot" etc. SOV should also declare due to focus even if GER does not do the same first.
   2. FRA and ENG has guarantees bestowed on many tagets of GER focus wars.
   3. When (if?) GER declares on ANY democratic country they'll automatically join Allies whether thay're guaranteed or not (WT will be high enough by that time).
   4. If I remember correctly there's a ENG focus that forces ENG to declare on a European country that generated the highest WT after WT passes a certain threshold. It'll force an Allies vs. Axis war.

it's hard to believe it would prevent any conflict between Germany and its neighbors

1. In-game your fears that there will be no wars are unfounded IMHO.
2. IRL, we enter the field of subjective speculations here yet...
3. IRL Señor H took a big gamble on France and UK not going to war due to another world conflict being so domestically unpopular there. Yet however important, Rhineland itself is a geo-limited issue -- allow France more time to react to a possible German attack on ITS own and only its own border and make preparations for such an attack more cumbersome for Germany. While Versailles and Poland and Czechoslovakia are FUNDAMENTAL wages of containment against Germany. Deprive Germany of a capacity to attack whoever wherever (Versailles) or create a credible (imminent?) grave (mortal?) threat of two-front war should she decide to attack either in the West or in the East. If UK and/or France are ready to go to war over a smaller issue why wouldn't they do the same over much more important ones?

 

[Emoneh]

1. You took completely ahistorical decision, what's wrong with getting ahistorical results?

Genuinely insane to me how many people on here believe that as soon as the player does anything ahistorical, all bets are off and the game no longer has to function or be coherent at all.

 

[Xerberous]

Genuinely insane to me how many people on here believe that as soon as the player does anything ahistorical, all bets are off and the game no longer has to function or be coherent at all.

Although alt-history is a difficult business, a lot of historians would agree that a bold reaction of France and the UK in would have led exactly to the scenario which happened in the game above: Germany backed down. So, sorry, but at this point the game functioned well and was 100 % coherent.

 

[Emoneh]

Although alt-history is a difficult business, a lot of historians would agree that a bold reaction of France and the UK in would have led exactly to the scenario which happened in the game above: Germany backed down. So, sorry, but at this point the game functioned well and was 100 % coherent.

And then they did absolutely nothing for 4 years, and then randomly DOWed the Soviets, with whom they don't share a border. That makes a lot of sense, and for a great game. Really don't understand why people feel the need to defend this sort of thing so strongly. If you generally hate the idea of any alt-history being in the game or something you can just say so!

 

[Eruth]

Genuinely insane to me how many people on here believe that as soon as the player does anything ahistorical, all bets are off and the game no longer has to function or be coherent at all.

This isn't just 'anything' ahistorical-- this is a specific decision that has no purpose other than preventing WW2. Why would you deny Rhineland if you don't want to prevent WW2? I'm all for a more responsive & dynamic game that can adjust to ahistoric action but like, if you want to fight WW2, then don't deny Rhineland. Actions have consequences.

 

[Poliut]

And if France and Germany don't back down, France winds up in for a rough time.

 

[twinxor]

And then they did absolutely nothing for 4 years, and then randomly DOWed the Soviets, with whom they don't share a border. That makes a lot of sense, and for a great game. Really don't understand why people feel the need to defend this sort of thing so strongly. If you generally hate the idea of any alt-history being in the game or something you can just say so!

What's particularly odd here is that it does seem like the intended behavior is just what happened before Gotterdammerung: France declares war on Germany and simultaneously faces a communist rebellion in the north & south of France. The tooltip indicates what is supposed to happen as well. It almost makes me think that games should receive some sort of "play testing" before release, instead of the devs just checking that everything compiles.

 

[Emoneh]

This isn't just 'anything' ahistorical-- this is a specific decision that has no purpose other than preventing WW2. Why would you deny Rhineland if you don't want to prevent WW2? I'm all for a more responsive & dynamic game that can adjust to ahistoric action but like, if you want to fight WW2, then don't deny Rhineland. Actions have consequences.

Presumably, therefore, appeasement was an aggressive policy designed to start a world war? Considering that its opposite could have no purpose other than preventing a war?

Anyway, the devs should not put an option that ruins the game in the first event in the most important event chain of the game--one that counter-intuitively prevents a war when it looks like the more aggressive option. Actually, some thought clearly has gone into this:

What's particularly odd here is that it does seem like the intended behavior is just what happened before Gotterdammerung: France declares war on Germany and simultaneously faces a communist rebellion in the north & south of France. The tooltip indicates what is supposed to happen as well. It almost makes me think that games should receive some sort of "play testing" before release, instead of the devs just checking that everything compiles.

...but has obviously gone awry here. Either Germany should not have an option to back down, France should just DOW; or some more serious work should go into how the game should go if Germany does back down. There is a variety of possible ways to go but nothing for four years then idiotic Soviet DOW is not a sensible result. The current setup just looks like a big warning sign to a player Germany saying DO NOT EVER DO THIS, not a serious option. Again, this is the most important event chain in the game, it's not really acceptable to say "well, you picked the wrong option and rolled the wrong result on the AI's choices, sorry, guess you'd better start a new game."

 

[kettyo]

And then they did absolutely nothing for 4 years, and then randomly DOWed the Soviets, with whom they don't share a border.

This only happens if you choose historical mode. In ahistorical mode these is a trigger which won't allow them taking the war with USSR focus when they don't share a border.

The game expects that by that time they will share a border or will be still at war with their continental enemies (for which these is another trigger to block this focus).

So choosing historical mode but opposing Rheinland has derailed the game for Germany a bit.

Solution would be to include the border trigger for historical too.

 

[L-Histidine]

I'm going to be a wag and say the issue here is the player-caused alt-history route isn't alt-history enough, instead trying to stay on the original historical rails after being derailed.

One might well expect that backing down over the Rhineland would result in Hitler being overthrown, with the game forcing Germany onto one of the opposition (democratic/communist/non-aligned) branches of the focus tree, with the rest of the playthrough developing from there.

 

[kettyo]

Actually according to the Anschluss focus it can be done when the Rhineland challange met idea isn't active anymore so normally Germany should do Anschluss and everything else they normally do after the 183 days of idea duration runs out (which happens earlier when they normally can do Anschluss anyway) so Germany not doing anything after the Rhineland opposition is not WAD. You might drop a bug report about this.