French dynamic names for Lothringen and Luxemburg

[Wagonlitz]

I just noticed that France doesn't have dynamic names for 94 Luxemburg and 189 Lothringen. I would suggest that she gets those. @Trin Tragula
I am no expert on French naming so I can't say what they were called in this period, but something like Luxembourg and Lorraine doesn't seem too unlikely given they are the current names---and at least are better than the German variants which France uses in game at the moment.

@Jos de trol, @Yvanoff, @BaronNoir, @IsadorBG, @Narwhal does any of you know if those areas had the contemporary French names back then or other names?

 

[Jos de trol]

Pretty much those, suitable enough for the purposes of atmosphere. Of course not entirely the same as the locals would have referred to themselves in patois but if that were the standard then all the French regions would have to be changed

 

[Dutchman251]

The problem is probably that you are playing in German. I'm playing in French, and they do get French names. It is the same with many Spanish and Italian provinces, that only get the right names if Spain or Italy holds them.

I think that the problem is that they base the decision whether a country should use dynamic naming on the English version of the game.

 

[Vaximillian]

In the English version of the games, Lorraine isn't called Lorraine even when owned by French-cultured Lorraine. Ditto for Luxemburg/Luxembourg.
It's kind of silly, actually.

 

[Wagonlitz]

The problem is probably that you are playing in German. I'm playing in French, and they do get French names. It is the same with many Spanish and Italian provinces, that only get the right names if Spain or Italy holds them.

I think that the problem is that they base the decision whether a country should use dynamic naming on the English version of the game.

I am using the English version of the game and France holds both provinces. As Vaximillian says those two names plain and simply aren't in the French dynamic names file.

 

[Dutchman251]

I am using the English version of the game and France holds both provinces. As Vaximillian says those two names plain and simply aren't in the French dynamic names file.

Ok. But they are in the French localization. That is probably the point, since they who care most, probably play in French already.
The problem is worse for Italy and Spain, actually.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Ok. But they are in the French localization. That is probably the point, since they who care most, probably play in French already.
The problem is worse for Italy and Spain, actually.

The game has a mechanic called dynamic province names. That means that provinces change name depending on which nation/culture owns them. France have several of these and if they e.g. own Köln it changes to Cologne. For some reason Luxembourg and Lorraine are missing on that list.
The French localisation most likely are missing those too, but just use French province names as a base for all provinces.

 

[VincentX]

I just noticed that France doesn't have dynamic names for 94 Luxemburg and 189 Lothringen. I would suggest that she gets those. @Trin Tragula
I am no expert on French naming so I can't say what they were called in this period, but something like Luxembourg and Lorraine doesn't seem too unlikely given they are the current names---and at least are better than the German variants which France uses in game at the moment.

@Jos de trol, @Yvanoff, @BaronNoir, @IsadorBG, @Narwhal does any of you know if those areas had the contemporary French names back then or other names?

Actually, Luxemburg is the French name, as that is how French speakers pronounce its local Germanic name, which is Lëtzebuerg. The history of the name is a bit weird, with Germans recycling the French name (from Luxembourg to Luxemburg) due to historic reasons. So, technically, when the area is owned by a Germanic culture it should probably be called Lëtzebuerg and not Luxemburg. When it is an independent country, it should definitely be called Lëtzebuerg.

The bigger problem with Luxemburg is that it currently has Wallonian culture, which makes no sense whatsoever. It should have a Germanic culture; Rhenish. And while I get that the western half of Luxemburg (before that part was partitioned to Belgium) is Romance cultured, 3 out 4 of its biggest urban centers (Arlon/Arel, Aubange/Eiben, Bastogne/Bastenach) are/were primarily Germanic cultured and remained so up to the 19th century. The Romance cultured area in the west and the south of the Duchy of Luxemburg never made up the main cultural body of the duchy and were gradually partitioned away from it.

I suspect that the confusion over Luxemburg being Wallonian/Germanic stems from Belgian Luxemburg, which was partitioned from Luxemburg to Belgium in 1839 (following the Belgian Revolution), is administrated in French nowadays and is seen as being Wallonian. Yet even so, its main urban area (Arlon/Arel) was still Germanic cultured at the time of the partition and was only given to Belgium for strategic reasons.

Spoiler

Partitions of Luxemburg:

Germanic-cultured area of modern Luxemburg (extends further west during EU4):

So, to recap:

• Germanic name of Luxemburg: Lëtzebuerg
• Luxemburg's province culture: Rhenish
• Luxemburg's primary culture: Rhenish

@Trin Tragula

 

[Wagonlitz]

Actually, Luxemburg is the French name, as that is how French speakers pronounce its local Germanic name, which is Lëtzebuerg. The history of the name is a bit weird, with Germans recycling the French name (from Luxembourg to Luxemburg) due to historic reasons. So, technically, when the area is owned by a Germanic culture it should probably be called Lëtzebuerg and not Luxemburg. When it is an independent country, it should definitely be called Lëtzebuerg.

The bigger problem with Luxemburg is that it currently has Wallonian culture, which makes no sense whatsoever. It should have a Germanic culture; Rhenish. And while I get that the western half of Luxemburg (before that part was partitioned to Belgium) is Romance cultured, 3 out 4 of its biggest urban centers (Arlon/Arel, Aubange/Eiben, Bastogne/Bastenach) are/were primarily Germanic cultured and remained so up to the 19th century. The Romance cultured area in the west and the south of the Duchy of Luxemburg never made up the main cultural body of the duchy and were gradually partitioned away from it.

I suspect that the confusion over Luxemburg being Wallonian/Germanic stems from Belgian Luxemburg, which was partitioned from Luxemburg to Belgium in 1839 (following the Belgian Revolution), is administrated in French nowadays and is seen as being Wallonian. Yet even so, its main urban area (Arlon/Arel) was still Germanic cultured at the time of the partition and was only given to Belgium for strategic reasons.

Spoiler

Partitions of Luxemburg:

View attachment 182709


Germanic-cultured area of modern Luxemburg (extends further west during EU4):

View attachment 182711

So, to recap:

• Germanic name of Luxemburg: Lëtzebuerg
• Luxemburg's province culture: Rhenish
• Luxemburg's primary culture: Rhenish

@Trin Tragula

Great post.


Also as far as I remember Luxembourg in game primarily is the current day duchy; i.e. an even better argument for Germanic culture.

Though was Lëtzebuerg ever used by other Germanics than the local dialects? If not I think it would be wrong to have say Saxons use it. (Not to say people like the North Germanics or the English though you probably only meant the German dialects plus Dutch/Flemish.

And was it really Luxembourg in German? That seems really strange, since burg is the variant of burg/borg/bourg/buerg/burgh/etc. commonly used in German.

 

[VincentX]

Also as far as I remember Luxembourg in game primarily is the current day duchy; i.e. an even better argument for Germanic culture.

Nah, it definitely are the borders of the old duchy, before half of it was given to Belgium. It's too big to be just modern Luxemburg. It looks a bit weird because Rethel is way bigger than it was in reality and thus cutting deeply into Namur and Liège where it shouldn't be, but I'm sure that has more to do with keeping the province clickable than anything else. Technically you could split Luxemburg right down the middle into two provinces, which quite a few mods have done.

Though was Lëtzebuerg ever used by other Germanics than the local dialects? If not I think it would be wrong to have say Saxons use it. (Not to say people like the North Germanics or the English though you probably only meant the German dialects plus Dutch/Flemish.

And was it really Luxembourg in German? That seems really strange, since burg is the variant of burg/borg/bourg/buerg/burgh/etc. commonly used in German.

Let's just say that it's a tad confusing.

Germanic carthographers named it Lützenburg or Lützelburg. Dutch writers called it Lutzenburgh. The French started calling it Luxembourgh, which Germans then started using as Luxemburg during the 18th century. The English picked up on the French name, same as they did with Cologne/Köln.

The distinction between Germanic/Romance isn't found in the burg/bourg part, as the French 'bourg' is Frankish in origin anyway (thus Germanic). Instead it's the Germanic 'tz' changing into the Romance 'x'. The 'tz'-sound is pronounced 's' in French, while 'x' is pronounced 'ks' which is closer to the original 'tz'. Thus the French would write 'Luxembourgh' to avoid saying 'Lusembourgh'. Another example of this is the city of 'Metz', pronounced 'Mets' in German but 'Mes' in French.

Long story short: the German name should be something with 'tz'. In absense of a clear preference between Lützenburg, Lützelburgh, Lutzenburgh or Lëtzebuerg, we should probably stick with the local name (which is the latter).

 

[Wagonlitz]

Germanic carthographers named it Lützenburg or Lützelburg. Dutch writers called it Lutzenburgh. The French started calling it Luxembourgh, which Germans then started using as Luxemburg during the 18th century. The English picked up on the French name, same as they did with Cologne/Köln.

The distinction between Germanic/Romance isn't found in the burg/bourg part, as the French 'bourg' is Frankish in origin anyway (thus Germanic). Instead it's the Germanic 'tz' changing into the Romance 'x'. The 'tz'-sound is pronounced 's' in French, while 'x' is pronounced 'ks' which is closer to the original 'tz'. Thus the French would write 'Luxembourgh' to avoid saying 'Lusembourgh'. Another example of this is the city of 'Metz', pronounced 'Mets' in German but 'Mes' in French.

Long story short: the German name should be something with 'tz'. In absense of a clear preference between Lützenburg, Lützelburgh, Lutzenburgh or Lëtzebuerg, we should probably stick with the local name (which is the latter).

I think you aren't aware how detailed you car go with dynamic names. You can easily give the Dutch Lutzenburgh. (The Netherlands has a dynamic names file already too.) And I would propose that happening @Trin Tragula.
Since Lützenburg and Lützelburg are what German cartographers used I would use one of those for the German dialects in general (perhaps for fun have some dialects use one variant and others use the other?). Which one I don't know. Perhaps one could look at which of them was most widespread.
Rhenish culture and only Rhenish culture would then use Lëtzebuerg.
There is nothing preventing that from being implemented in the current system so we shouldn't simplify things by using the local name which will be wrong for most of the German dialects.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Great Stuff
I'll implement the various names for Luxemburg (though the tag name won't change) for 1.18.
Should Lëtzebuerg be for all Rhenish countries or just for when the tag itself holds its home province?

 

[Wagonlitz]

Great Stuff
I'll implement the various names for Luxemburg (though the tag name won't change) for 1.18.
Should Lëtzebuerg be for all Rhenish countries or just for when the tag itself holds its home province?

I would say all Rhenish cultures, since it is the same dialect.

Also how will you implement the name for the other German cultures? Just give them either of Lützenburg/Lützelburg or do what I proposed with giving some the former and some the latter to symbolise that cartographers couldn't agree on it?
Also if you so my suggestion then while it could be randomly distributed then perhaps giving Lützenburg to the low Germans sans the Dutch and Lützelburg to the high Germans would make sense. The reason I would give Lützenburg to the Low Germans is that it is closer to the Dutch version than Lützelburg.

 

[Twoflower]

I would say all Rhenish cultures, since it is the same dialect.

I think Lëtzebuerg or something close to it is only what Moselle Franconian dialects call it, i.e besides Luxembourg itself, it is strictly speaking only accurate for Trier. Rhenish Franconian or Limburgish dialects do not use the umlaut diacritic for the e. I would say Lëtzebuerg for Luxembourg and Trier, and Lützelburg/Lützenburg for all other Rhenish countries.

Also, it might be worth noting that in the Walloon dialect it is still called Lussembork/Lussemborg today and was called that in medieval correspondence (for example, the letter by which Duke Jean of Brabant and Count Florent of Holland declared a truce with the Duke of Gelre during the war of the Limburg succession in 1287 speaks of "li cuens de Lussemborg"), hence it might be nice to use that for Wallonian countries.

 

[Wagonlitz]

I think Lëtzebuerg or something close to it is only what Moselle Franconian dialects call it, i.e besides Luxembourg itself, it is strictly speaking only accurate for Trier. Rhenish Franconian or Limburgish dialects do not use the umlaut diacritic for the e. I would say Lëtzebuerg for Luxembourg and Trier, and Lützelburg/Lützenburg for all other Rhenish countries.

Also, it might be worth noting that in the Walloon dialect it is still called Lussembork/Lussemborg today and was called that in medieval correspondence (for example, the letter by which Duke Jean of Brabant and Count Florent of Holland declared a truce with the Duke of Gelre during the war of the Limburg succession in 1287 speaks of "li cuens de Lussemborg"), hence it might be nice to use that for Wallonian countries.

Of course Wallons should use Lussemborg then.

Lets try and compile as large a list of Luxembourg names as we can.


@Trin Tragula how is the list of importance when it comes to dynamic names? Is it so that files for culture groups (i.e. germanic.txt) are used when applicable unless there is a file for a culture in that group (say Rhenish) which is used unless there is a file for a specific tag (say LUX and TRI)?


I have looked in CS and the Danish name in this period was Lützelburg.

So as far as I can see so far we have:

Danish: Lützelburg
Dutch: Lutzenburgh
Wallon: Lussemborg
LUX and TRI: Lëtzebuerg

What about Flemish? Should that use the Dutch name?

Then the rest of the Germanic cultures either all use the same of Lützenburg or Lützelburg or some of the cultures use the former and others the latter.
I would prefer the option where some use the former and some use the latter.

Perhaps have Pommeranian, Prussian, Hannoverian, Saxon use Lützelburg.
And have Hessian, Franconian, Swabian, Swiss, Bavarian, Austrian use Lützenburg.
The reason I divide it like that is to have it connect with the surroundings. It is Lützelburg in Danish so have the north, eastern cultures use Lützelburg makes sense. On the other hand the Dutch uses Lutzenburgh so having the south western cultures use Lützenburg makes sense.

 

[VincentX]

Danish: Lützelburg
Dutch: Lutzenburgh
Wallon: Lussemborg
LUX and TRI: Lëtzebuerg

Looks excellent.

What about Flemish? Should that use the Dutch name?

Yes, since Flemish and Dutch are literally the same thing and should never have been separate cultures in the first place.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Looks excellent.



Yes, since Flemish and Dutch are literally the same thing and should never have been separate cultures in the first place.

What do you think about dividing the German cultures between Lützenburg and Lützelburg as I proposed?