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CatilinamSum

Pesky Immersion Guy
38 Badges
Apr 29, 2015
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This Event Pack was not praised on release, and is now even worse in hindsight.
  • Feuds are bizarre & tedious.
  • Many Events are unreasonably corny or silly, and fire repeatedly during the same ruler's lifetime.
  • Lastly, because Friends and Foes was released prior to Tours & Tournaments, many events are temporo-spatially nonsensical. How and why is the King of Italy walking down the streets of London?
It's a shame, because many of the concepts within this DLC are interesting. Yet their execution is botched, and the pack has only continued to age poorly.

I know that there is a laundry list of "Old Content That Needs Fixing," but Friends & Foes easily stands at the top of that list. It is almost so disruptive that I want to disable it from my campaigns. Alongside other early DLC like Fate of Iberia and Royal Court, future free patches should focus on fixing what we've already paid for.
 
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It's a symptom of not maintaining any of the mechanics we currently have. But hey, look at the China!
 
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At this point I feel like early DLC scope were much smaller and sparse in features than what we're seeing now. Just compare Royal Court to Roads to Power or the upcoming All Under Heaven.

Flavor Packs seems to be a relic of the past at this point, because I think they're going to use Core Expansions to cover a few regions at once, and by the looks of Khans of the Steppe, it looks like those early regions covered in FP like Iberia, Norse and Persia will end up feeling too light in content in comparison to other parts of the world when they receive their own flavor.

Events Pack I can't talk about, because F&F is the only one I have.

Sadly, besides balancing things (like when they fixed the situation where you were locked out of finishing Iberian Struggle), I doubt they're going to rework systems or add content. That's why I think the later your favorite regions get a DLC, the better. It always happens.
 
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At this point I feel like early DLC scope were much smaller and sparse in features than what we're seeing now. Just compare Royal Court to Roads to Power or the upcoming All Under Heaven.

Flavor Packs seems to be a relic of the past at this point, because I think they're going to use Core Expansions to cover a few regions at once, and by the looks of Khans of the Steppe, it looks like those early regions covered in FP like Iberia, Norse and Persia will end up feeling too light in content in comparison to other parts of the world when they receive their own flavor.

Events Pack I can't talk about, because F&F is the only one I have.

Sadly, besides balancing things (like when they fixed the situation where you were locked out of finishing Iberian Struggle), I doubt they're going to rework systems or add content. That's why I think the later your favorite regions get a DLC, the better. It always happens.

The Norse and Iberia are the worst ones (i don't know anything about Persia so i can't make suggestions abput that). I would like a custodian team to rework old expansions and make that regions more meaty in content.
 
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At this point I feel like early DLC scope were much smaller and sparse in features than what we're seeing now. Just compare Royal Court to Roads to Power or the upcoming All Under Heaven.

Flavor Packs seems to be a relic of the past at this point, because I think they're going to use Core Expansions to cover a few regions at once, and by the looks of Khans of the Steppe, it looks like those early regions covered in FP like Iberia, Norse and Persia will end up feeling too light in content in comparison to other parts of the world when they receive their own flavor.

Events Pack I can't talk about, because F&F is the only one I have.

Sadly, besides balancing things (like when they fixed the situation where you were locked out of finishing Iberian Struggle), I doubt they're going to rework systems or add content. That's why I think the later your favorite regions get a DLC, the better. It always happens.

I agree with the sentiment, but I hope this does not end up being the case.

It's fine that the first DLCs were "experimental," intended to test the waters and establish a design philosophy going forward. But now that that philosophy is established, earlier content should not simply be discarded.

The latest free update was great, but almost exclusively addressed base game content. There's nothing with this, but we paid for Vikings and Iberia expecting a certain standard of quality. Hell, Iberia still doesn't have unique MAA with art, and the AI doesn't understand how to utilize the Struggle mechanics with even half the competency it has during the Persian Struggle.

It is a disservice to an overall great game if Paradox chooses to neglect their earlier, imperfect content. But Paradox will only forget if we forget, distracted by what's new and shiny. I think we should continue to advocate for future updates integrating this old content with the rest of the game, and make practical suggestions on how to do this. Incorporating Vikings into the Adventurer system, making the Iberian Struggle feel as dynamic as the Persian Struggle, making Friends & Foes events actually consider the locations of the characters involved... and so on.
 
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My biggest issue with flavor packs is their focus on specific dates, while other DLC, even events packs, are timeless. Northern lords focuses only on 867, completely ignoring other dates. Most content of Persia also focuses on first date, while in Iberia situation is a little better. Other DLC designed with future ages is mind - cultures get more and more traditions through time in Royal Court; player open new accolades and tournament activities along with different clothes and armor in Tours and Tournaments; Roads to Power gives us the Fourth Crusade and clothes progression. In most cases this progression through time is not that big, but at least it exists.

There is only one way to fix flavor packs - add content to all start dates. Why we have only Vikings, while completely ignoring Normans? Why there is no constant Norman adventures in 1066 Mediterranean, who terrorizes Africa coast and Roman Empire? Why rulers of Scandinavia wear clothes of tribal era in medieval era? Why are they stuck in Scandinavian succession, while every other ruler around have primogeniture?

With fate of Persia we get Seljuk invasion, but didn't get aggressive Turk adventurers. Conquest of Anatolia and formation of Rum was one of the biggest disasters in roman history, and yet, we didn't see this in 1066. Seljuks just conquer Armenia and explode. And what about Zoroastrian faith? Why can rulers embrace it only in first start date? Zoroastrian is not dead even nowadays.

In Iberia situation is better, but its struggle is still very annoying and problematic. Persian struggle can end without player or AI interaction, while this struggle will continue up to the EU4 times. There is still one of the most annoying conditions of ending this struggle in aggressive way - we need to spread our culture and religion. Religion part is easy, but culture is annoying even after vassal directives introduction. Also, struggle may end in creation of tiny empires, which is absurd. Another big issue - is when outsiders come to Iberia - for them this region simply doesn't offer anything. The quintessence of this problem is Almohads - game consider them outsiders and doesn't recognize as a part of struggle.

As for event packs... Friends and Foes, in my opinion, was a mistake. Instead, this DLC should focus on house feuds entirely. House feuds are one of rare factors that can make game harder even for experienced players. Even if player character survived in a feud with giant house - his children may be not that lucky. But this feuds feel abstract and disconnected, sometimes even confusing, because I can't normally see progress of them. CK3 itself may be described as a game about house feuds and instead of them DLC focuses on birthdays and tavern drunks. House feuds literally ruined Tibet Empire and yet, there is no possibility of starting feud on religion basis in this DLC.

The other two event packs is much better, because they give us working and useful mechanics. Hostages, adoption, university visit, better education control, three traveler activities and whole new lifestyle. Their events are repetitive, but some of them are really interesting (such as hostage events, where you can adopt them and make part of your dynasty).
 
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This Event Pack was not praised on release, and is now even worse in hindsight.
  • Feuds are bizarre & tedious.
  • Many Events are unreasonably corny or silly, and fire repeatedly during the same ruler's lifetime.
  • Lastly, because Friends and Foes was released prior to Tours & Tournaments, many events are temporo-spatially nonsensical. How and why is the King of Italy walking down the streets of London?
It's a shame, because many of the concepts within this DLC are interesting. Yet their execution is botched, and the pack has only continued to age poorly.

I know that there is a laundry list of "Old Content That Needs Fixing," but Friends & Foes easily stands at the top of that list. It is almost so disruptive that I want to disable it from my campaigns. Alongside other early DLC like Fate of Iberia and Royal Court, future free patches should focus on fixing what we've already paid for.
Wards & Wardens was unexpected to win but since the community thought it would have added regents it was voted en masse, the one who came up with the three expressed regret since the love and lust event pack would have been at the foremost. The result today is an half-baked event pack that desperately needs updating
 
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Friends & foe was unexpected to win but since the community thought it would have added regents it was voted en masse, the one who came up with the three expressed regret since the love and lust event pack would have been at the foremost. The result today is an half-baked event pack that desperately needs updating
I think the poll winner was Wards & Wardens, the second event pack. But you're right in that people voted W&W because of regencies, and many of them feels a bit pissed after they revealed regencies were coming with Tours & Tournaments update. Friends & Foe was the first experiment they did in terms of changing DLC structure. It was basically the first Event Pack with no prior feedback and it shows.
 
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I think the poll winner was Wards & Wardens, the second event pack. But you're right in that people voted W&W because of regencies, and many of them feels a bit pissed after they revealed regencies were coming with Tours & Tournaments update. Friends & Foe was the first experiment they did in terms of changing DLC structure. It was basically the first Event Pack with no prior feedback and it shows.
Oh, I misremembered the name, thanks!
 
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I don't understand why in a game about dynasties they put so little effort into feuds. It should have been a full on feature but instead a dev wrote "everyone in each house tries to kill everyone in the other house" and they stuck it in an event pack.
 
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I found it weird that Legacy of Persia cared more about providing events, decisions, and a Struggle Ending for Zoroastrian revival than it does about giving flavor and content for the Seljuks. Who ruled Persia for the better part of two centuries and caused some of the most consequential events in Medieval Europe (the Crusades, the Fall of Eastern Rome).

But, yeah, Friends and Foes is easily the weakest DLC in CK3 and both of the other event packs (Wards and Wardens, Wandering Nobles) are much better. It is extremely weird that there isn’t a proper way to view Feuds or tell if you’re winning/losing, or a way to actually end them. I disabled Friends and Foes because of how obnoxious it was to accidentally trigger a Feud and get half your house wiped out because you forgot you had a member of the Abbasids or Makedon families in your dungeon when you Mass Executed everyone in prison.
 
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I found it weird that Legacy of Persia cared more about providing events, decisions, and a Struggle Ending for Zoroastrian revival than it does about giving flavor and content for the Seljuks. Who ruled Persia for the better part of two centuries and caused some of the most consequential events in Medieval Europe (the Crusades, the Fall of Eastern Rome).

But, yeah, Friends and Foes is easily the weakest DLC in CK3 and both of the other event packs (Wards and Wardens, Wandering Nobles) are much better. It is extremely weird that there isn’t a proper way to view Feuds or tell if you’re winning/losing, or a way to actually end them. I disabled Friends and Foes because of how obnoxious it was to accidentally trigger a Feud and get half your house wiped out because you forgot you had a member of the Abbasids or Makedon families in your dungeon when you Mass Executed everyone in prison.
Maybe i'm misremembering but isn't legacy of Persia historically before the Seljuk? Maybe a new ending for Turkic nomads that let's you end with the formatión of the Seljuk (or another dinasty) empire.
 
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It's a symptom of not maintaining any of the mechanics we currently have. But hey, look at the China!
You are right, but to be fair 1.15 exists and i really, really hope will get updates like that every year, at least once, this is the stuff ck3 desperately needs.
 
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You are right, but to be fair 1.15 exists and i really, really hope will get updates like that every year, at least once, this is the stuff ck3 desperately needs.

1.15 is fantastic, but it leaves me concerned that their free updates will be limited to base game content and features. As previously mentioned, several DLCs from the first few years after launch are in sore need of some help.
 
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1.15 is fantastic, but it leaves me concerned that their free updates will be limited to base game content and features. As previously mentioned, several DLCs from the first few years after launch are in sore need of some help.
It's not based on being DLC or base game content. For example, we updated many RoCo hold court and court events for Roads to Power.
 
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I think the game's approach to making Event-driven content in general has been somewhat flawed. A while ago I made a thread about it that singled-out Friends & Foes as an example.

In addition to the problems you identified, I believe character interactions in this game rely way too much on RNG. Say, you can't choose to slander, prank or sabotage a rival, most of your characters social life (besides Activities) consist of random Events you have to wait for and hope they come up. It's hard to roleplay or strategize (re. the social and storytelling side of the game) in this way.
 
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F and F really need to be in the rework. Interfamily wars should be more complex, global and with special interactions and events. Speaking of special events and interactions. Correct me, but the statuses of friend, best friend, lover and rival certainly give some special interactions, but I don't feel that this is really my friend due to the lack of truly special events, interactions. Those that exist are very rare. + I would like some automatic mini-events-bonuses with friends (like my wife once helped me find gold with a special high skill, for example). Now in the game the status of characters as friends and rivals, etc. does not allow you to feel it as it should.

The question of the rework leads us to the fact - will the studio really do this? This needs to distract workers from creating new content that will bring in money. This may need to create a separate team for reworks, and this is a minus of money. And in general, a rework of the entire add-on is a serious minus of money. Even with the advent of AI, this is costly and the question arises - how interested is the studio in completely remaking the DLC, even if it is necessary.
 
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