• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

sleeperul

Lt. General
Jul 11, 2014
1.340
105
So Western Han dynasty was made by an peasant who claimed he was an descendant from the Eastern Han dynasty.
Now I know that the Eastern Han dynasty ruled for about 200 years but how did members of the royal family became peasants?

Is it even possible?
 
You got the order confused. Western Han founder Liu Bang was a peasant. Eastern Han followed Western Han once the ruling dynasty was restored after Wang Mang's defeat and the capital was moved to Luoyang.

That said, there were plenty of scions of the Liu family who didn't fare so fell. Liu Bei of the Three Kingdoms fame spent his early life in poverty despite being descended of the ruling family.
 
Plenty of royals sank into poverty during the course of history. That happened especially when family estates were divided between heirs. A few generations that produced many children is sufficient to leave heirs with not enough means to support themselves.

In Poland the Silesian and Kuyavian branches of the Piast dynasty were especially prone to multiply their members. This produced princelings who sometimes ruled over some sleepy hollow and surrounding swamps. I've read that this went even further in Russia and its Rurik dynasty. Reportedly some princes were so poor that they had to plow their fields themselves.
 
Basically all rulers claimed to be descendant from something or another. If not an earlier prestigious dynasty, then they might up a bunch of legendary figures, who usually in turn were directly related to the Gods. It shouldn't be taken too seriously.

At the same time, for most countries a good portion of the populace is indeed related to early nobility. So it might even be true. Even if it means little. ^^ Japanese related to the prestigious Fujiwara? Well, they didn't only marry the Emperors. I've seen figures claiming up to 30% of modern day Japanese would be related to them. Of course, the less generations there are between "now" and the "prestigious dynasty" you claim to be from the smaller that figure will most likely be, but noble families usually had many children, and they were usually more likely to live long enough to have many children themselves ...
 
There were also times where it was very convenient for the folk in charge of the nation to be able to put said royal-to-peasant back in charge. In the late Joseon dynasty of Korea, for instance, the Andong Kims had an iron grip on power for much of the mid-19th century. After the then-king died without an heir in 1849, they found a distant relative whose closest link to the ruling dynasty was his great-grandfather Crown Prince Sado. The family had fled court to rural Ganghwa island after losing big in dynastic intrigues, to gloss over the matter, and the major point is that by the time the Andong Kims found Cheoljong, the 25th king of Joseon, his entire family lived in what was termed "wretched poverty." In spite of the pride in education among the yangban as part of the Confucian roots, he couldn't even read, had no idea how to act in court, and generally was the perfect puppet for the Andong Kims to maintain their rule due to his ignorance.

The above story, to tie it back to the thread, actually is indicative of a trend in Korean history in this era, which marked a growing increase in "fallen yangban" nobles who could no longer sustain the means of being noble in Joseon Korea. The fundamental reason is not entirely identical to the gavelkind rules of Europe noted in the thread, but it does boil down to the same thing: a growing lack of means. The gradual degradation of the state organs of governance meant that corruption was on the rise, with a concomitant rise in local taxation to cover the cost of bribes that squeezed not only the peasantry, but also landholders. As well, the growing monopolization of power by a few major families ever since the 18th century meant that many other families were frozen out of the old offices of government. This forced them to eke out a living based solely on their land rather than on the traditional salaries permitted to government officials, and many had only trivial estates to begin with. A growing permissiveness regarding the hiring of the illegitimate children of yangban families who couldn't keep their affairs in their pants also increased competition for posts from ostensible peers. Finally, one must also note that the era also marked growing social power by non-"noble" classes from the chungin, a hereditary class of technical specialists such as traders, physicians, scientists, and lesser government clerks, a further source of competition. In short, many yangban families were squeezed out from above, alongside, and below all at once.
 
Very interesting but it does not apply to the royal family of Joseon you said that they became farmers because of losing big in palace intrigues. He was probably(25'th king) descended from one of the 2 bastard sons of Crown Prince Sado with I wanna say concubine. Actually its an fun story here Crown Prince Sado and his Father impregnated 2 maids each at the same time and bet on who will have sons. The king of course had daughters and Crown Prince Sado had 2 sons. Lets say the poor boys where not very respected in the royal family beings the bastards of an Crown Prince later executed. Also the king began hating his son more for you know doing what he could not sire more sons. Crown Prince Sado had an son with his wife before this event and that son became king one of the best of the kingdom.
 
Very interesting but it does not apply to the royal family of Joseon you said that they became farmers because of losing big in palace intrigues. He was probably(25'th king) descended from one of the 2 bastard sons of Crown Prince Sado with I wanna say concubine. Actually its an fun story here Crown Prince Sado and his Father impregnated 2 maids each at the same time and bet on who will have sons. The king of course had daughters and Crown Prince Sado had 2 sons. Lets say the poor boys where not very respected in the royal family beings the bastards of an Crown Prince later executed. Also the king began hating his son more for you know doing what he could not sire more sons. Crown Prince Sado had an son with his wife before this event and that son became king one of the best of the kingdom.
Yes, correct, though I did not actually know most of those fine details. Prince Sado apparently sired three sons by his two concubines. The eldest of the three was Ŭnŏn'gun, who had a son Chŏn'gye Taewŏn'gun, whose son Ch'ŏljong acceded to the throne as the 25th king. Unfortunately, the family tree I have is rather sparse on fine details - no spouses or concubines on it, for an obvious detail, so I had to cross-collate that detail about parentage from other sources. It's very...traditionally-minded, I want to say? Well, it is from 1976, and it is probably pulling from official Joseon-era sources on that matter, so I suppose it cannot be helped too much.

EDIT: I also should do a better job of finishing my sentences. My apologies.
 
Last edited:
So Western Han dynasty was made by an peasant who claimed he was an descendant from the Eastern Han dynasty.
Now I know that the Eastern Han dynasty ruled for about 200 years but how did members of the royal family became peasants?

Is it even possible?
The way Chinese nobility worked is like this:

If you are ennobled with a certain rank then you children don't inherit that rank but a rank one step lower. If your children are inheriting their rank don't earn a higher rank then their children will inherit again one rank lower. And so on. So depending on how many generations there are, it is possible that the descendants of a royal prince end up as sandal weavers like Liu Bei.
 
There's also the matter that a new dynasty won't neccessarily wipe out the entire extended Imperial family of the previous one. (especailly if they're supportive of the new management) then in time attrition and gradual loss of status takes care of the rest.
 
Oh I know that but it applied to the imperial family also?
I think so. Else you'd get massive inflation of noble titles. And the danger that branches of the imperial family would become estranged from the ruling branch,yet remain powerful on their fiefs. That would be contrary to how the Han tried to rule. (the Jin and many other dynasties fell to intra family strife because they tried to rule the realm as feudal lords with their own family enfeoffed with the majority of lands within)
 
There is actually a European king who encapsulates the whole medieval philosophy to these kinds of situations fairly well - king Sverre of Norway. And what may this standard operating procedure be? Lying! Svere was a Faroese priest who arrived from nowhere to become a rebel leader and then the most important medieval ruler of Norway. He accomplished all this by claiming to be a bastard son of the previous king Sigurd Munn (highly unlikely, but kings have always sired bastards) and presenting himself to rebelling Birkebeiner clan-grouping/political party, who were in a bit of pickle after their previous fielded pretender suffered a severe case of being dead. Any legal wrangling was now moot, Sverre had an army his army, and it was through military means he would be combatted (except for his feud with the papacy, but what ruler wasn't).
 
Oh I know that but it applied to the imperial family also?
In the Han system the oldest son of a noble (whether part of the Liu clan or not) as a rule inherited the full title of the father. Younger sons of kings/princes were made marquises, but younger sons of marquises did not get anything. There were also a variety of offenses that could lead to losing your title. This was what happened to Liu Bei's claimed ancestor

(I would not call the Jin princes feudal lords, they derived their power from their appointments to office in the capital or military command in the provinces)
 
For female nobility it was real easy. They could be the Kings daughter, but that does not in any way guarantee to an equal ranked husband. That was a far lower priority over the sons finding an equal or greater noble wife. It was unlikely to go straight to peasant but over generations a Kings daughter marries a count, who's daughter marries a Knight and then to a peasant of some kind. Now there other possibility I consider equal to direct to peasant is becoming a Nun in the Catholic Church, which could and I believe did sometimes happen to Kings daughters.
 
"Might makes right" is the simple way to do it