Game is getting more complex

[Fian2]

The base game is too complex imo, but I have figured it out, however with each redesign and DLC released, the complexity continues to grow. More is not necessarily better, and imo usually isn't. I get the DLC method works for Paradox's bottom line, but it would be nice if it didn't intrude into the base game that I play. My latest complaint is with the research projects. Apparently it is a new mechanic, and as far as I can tell you have to use it even if you only play the base game. It is annoying to find out that I can't even research radar in the regular research tree until I spend a year on building a airplane research facility and then assigning a scientist somehow to research radar in a research project first. All of that costs civilian factories and political power points that are in short supply.

Whenever they get around to making HOI5, I really hope they try and simplify and make more user friendly the base game, and when it comes to DLC try to avoid adding features that make the game more complex. A good example of a good DLC are the new country specific DLC that have been released. The political trees are a part of the base game, and the revamped trees are much better and more interesting. Maybe a DLC that consolidates information in a new way, or gives a more streamlined approach to managing the war.

 

[billcorr]

More is not necessarily better, and imo usually isn't.

I agree.

This discussion about the game's complexity is also important for

* Paradox shareholders
* and the CEO of Paradox

I'm not a shareholder, and I'm not the CEO. But I am a firm believer (until confronted by contrary evidence) that good designs adhere to the principle of

Simplify
Simplify
Simplify

There are many ways to simplify HoI4's design.

The success and revenue from HoI4 depend on getting customers to pay money for the game.

The OP warns against making the game too complicated for new players (ask my friend, Fred. "Bill, I bought that game that you always play...but I don't understand it. " Fred has 50 to 60 years of wargaming experience. But he does not play HoI4.)

 

[billcorr]

The OP author is very important voice.

One might assume that given that this is the author's first or second post on this forum, the author is relatively new to HoI4.

If Paradox could interview and survey 100 to 200 new players (like Fian2 and my friend, Fred), Paradox might learn what they like and dislike about HoI4.

Using such feedback, improve the game


... and increase sales.

 

[General Tao]

I don't share the sentiment that the game is becoming too complex - HOI is less technically complex than other current PDX titles and certainly less complex than previous HOI entries.

However I do agree with you on the example of research projects, and especially on technologies which previously existed in the research tree, in that all it really creates here is extra busy work. HOI is pretty guilty having busy work, e.g. recreating favourite templates every game, redesigning favourite tanks/planes/ships every game, MIOs and the extra work required to slowly achieve (but admittedly, later improve on) what was once a single-choice designer.

My biggest problem with research projects is that we now have two separate methods of research which interact poorly / not at all with each other on separate UIs. I don't see the need for a separate UI just to access some locked away technologies that have their own resource (breakthrough points), which is functionally entirely dependent on the related research tab. I think research projects should have been integrated into the existing research UI (like GER and the Inner Circle) and have it clear where & how the branch appears. As it currently stands now you have new research topics on the research UI which cannot be accessed through progressing on the research UI, being dependent on acquiring the right project. This is highly unintuitive to both new and returning players.

So I fully agree that research projects redesign has made the game seem unnecessarily complex, especially if you were already familiar with the previous system and have to "relearn" something just to get back on where you were. Not on the same scale as Stellaris and the complete redesign of FTL tech, but still something to avoid if one can.

 

[billcorr]

As it currently stands now you have new research topics on the research UI which cannot be accessed through progressing on the research UI, being dependent on acquiring the right project. This is highly unintuitive to both new and returning players.

Can spies steal the special research?

Or are flame tanks and RADAR etc technologies immune to theft?

 

[Fian2]

Btw, I have 250 hours in the game, which I assume still means I am a newbie.

 

[Dimmie_Dumm]

Can spies steal the special research?

Or are flame tanks and RADAR etc technologies immune to theft?

Spies can steal tech that is initially gated by a special project without you completing one. It's quite amazing gaining Radar 2 without having Radar 1, and being unable to research Radar 3 because it's still project-gated.

To my knowledge, the projects themselves cannot be stolen, but you can gain some immediate progress on them by capturing facilities with old fashioned brute force, much like capturing a city in Civilization 2 would give you a tech you hadn't researched yourself yet.

 

[mwall04]

I have the opposite sentiment. I had 1,000’s of hours into HOI3 and loved its complexity. Setting up my Army’s hierarchy, ensuring headquarter units moved in close proximity to the units it supported, etc. When HOI4 came out, it first felt like an arcade version to me. I quickly stopped playing it. Came back to it recently and feel it’s getting close to how I felt about HOI3.

 

[Bailing_Out]

The complexity kinda works for me, keeps my head working better. That being said some of it is weird. I can use say engine 3 without having researched it or the heavier armor for ships, never even looked at that part of the research but there it was, maybe its a mod causing that who knows. I know this though, I must start slowing down game speed when a war begins. I'm over there dealing with the navy and never notice the Soviets and the commie Chinese have overrun my army in Manchuko, some are encircled and I'm going to lose cause most of my army was there.

 

[Kayzer-i Anadolu]

My opinions are just the opposite. HoI4 is really simple than it should be and with every DLC, it did not get more complex but incompatible with former game content. Because of focus trees development burden for developers, game is not developing its mechanic side since NSB.We only get more and more "flavor" but no tools for strategy and warfare. We have a shallow naval warfare which did not touched since relase asides stat tweakings and CA/CL arrangement. Land warfare is stucked in TD spam and air warfare is incentives investment of everything or anything. I cant imagine how this game can become more easy and forgiving. While I am not a big fan of designers, I can't understand why it comes too overwhelming to players. Against AI, nothing is important design anything and it will crush AI and against players, there are strict meta designs which easily memorized. For the MIO's, their buffs are so small, you can right click on the notification and it will probably wont change ultimate outcome. Please dont make this game more RPG than its current state. Even now it is hard to describe it a strategy game.

 

[hannibal_pjv]

Well maybe HOI5 is simple mobile game that you can play with you cell phone!

But yeah… having two separate system is not good. What I really hope that the new reseach system is the new base system in HOI5. So you only get new tech by buiding research building, hiring scientist to work in there and so on. So all tech would be done with that system! Ofcourse it needs balansing so that smal weapon reseach would be Little bit cheaper and so on. Because that would be more realistic… and if you want you could build more research buildings to get mor reseach, so no need arbitrary reseach slot system either!
Military doctrines could be done in military akademies, so that also could use same system. You would have to chose if Rommelmis teaching and developing new tactics, or is he leading Army somewhere. That could offer interesting choise options!
The more I think of it… Yeah, all development should be similar than new reseach system in HOI5… or then we get mobile game… I prefer the more completely system better. It offer small country option to get research power nouse if they get enough civs to build those reseach centers… so no problem is Tanuva Tuva conguer half the world. It can build then all the reseach it needs without being hampered by predetermined reseach slots. It could actuallu work well!

 

[General Tao]

So you only get new tech by buiding research building, hiring scientist to work in there and so on. So all tech would be done with that system!…

...and if you want you could build more research buildings to get mor reseach, so no need arbitrary reseach slot system either!

The arbitrary research slot IMO is a good abstraction to manage it at a country level. I already have C&C for "building....cannot comply, building in progress...construction complete" (and, my favourite, "China will grow larger"...). I don't want to be putting down buildings unless it's directly for the war effort or some special wunderwaffen.

They could integrate it better by associating scientists with research slots to give appropriate bonuses to certain techs. Just anything to have it on one UI.

The on-map buildings for projects are lackluster too - I can't imagine a use for raiding those outside of some niche MP scenarios, and the reward for capturing a facility is laughable - oh joy, a whole 5% progress to super-heavy artillery? What a bonus! I asked early on if you could at least have a chance to capture the scientist but that was turned down too. Yeah, having played a few games with GD I really do think research projects is the worst new mechanic since spies - lackluster, poorly integrated with current mechanics, and just increases the busywork. I only hope that, unlike spies, they'll continue to work on it..

 

[Firefly11_11]

The base game is too complex imo, but I have figured it out, however with each redesign and DLC released, the complexity continues to grow. More is not necessarily better, and imo usually isn't. I get the DLC method works for Paradox's bottom line, but it would be nice if it didn't intrude into the base game that I play. My latest complaint is with the research projects. Apparently it is a new mechanic, and as far as I can tell you have to use it even if you only play the base game. It is annoying to find out that I can't even research radar in the regular research tree until I spend a year on building a airplane research facility and then assigning a scientist somehow to research radar in a research project first. All of that costs civilian factories and political power points that are in short supply.

Whenever they get around to making HOI5, I really hope they try and simplify and make more user friendly the base game, and when it comes to DLC try to avoid adding features that make the game more complex. A good example of a good DLC are the new country specific DLC that have been released. The political trees are a part of the base game, and the revamped trees are much better and more interesting. Maybe a DLC that consolidates information in a new way, or gives a more streamlined approach to managing the war.

Each update makes it harder for new people to get into the game.

 

[MrMcQue]

The OP author is very important voice.

One might assume that given that this is the author's first or second post on this forum, the author is relatively new to HoI4.

If Paradox could interview and survey 100 to 200 new players (like Fian2 and my friend, Fred), Paradox might learn what they like and dislike about HoI4.

Using such feedback, improve the game


... and increase sales.

Yeah. I like the complexity and even think that HoI4 is shallow in some aspects, but i have nothing against @Fian2 and his opinion. He is a new player with relatively little hours (for a pdx game), and even if we disagree with the way we might want the game to go, his voice can still be important.

Maybe the devs can manage to introduce some more tutorials, help players who want that with managing things ingame, and more. I wouldn't necessarily upvote his post, but i think the 6x Disagree is a bit too much.

 

[Fian2]

Lots of interesting perspectives in this thread. One of my complaints is that Paradox continues to change the base game. Base game changes should be focused on bug fixes and maybe slight balance changes. You shouldn't be introducing new systems. We have talked about research. I also remember as Italy getting a super heavy battleship design, and then being told I couldn't use it because I hadn't researched something that was in the DLC for making modular ships. Part of the problem with making significant changes to the base game is it invalidates all of the tutorials that have been created in Youtube for the game, making it even harder for new players to get into the game.

If Paradox were to add new systems in DLC, I personally don't think that is a good direction for the game, but at least I can avoid them by not buying the DLC. My opinion of whatever DLC that allows you to make custom tanks, planes, and ships is it ends up being an extra level of complexity and players just learn whatever the meta is, which makes the AI even easier to beat. It also results in every country in theory having the same tanks, planes, and ships instead of one country having advantages in one area over another. The more countries are different imo, the better, because it increases replayability. Playing as a different country becomes a different experience with advantages and disadvantages.

When it comes to the Spy DLC, I have bought it, but have opted to not use it. I didn't like diverting my civilian factories, and it just took my attention from other parts of the game. At least being a DLC, I have the option to just not install it.

 

[Anaraxes]

{ Designers } also results in every country in theory having the same tanks, planes, and ships instead of one country having advantages in one area over another.

The base game, from launch, has had identical equipment stats for all countries. The only differences are cosmetic (picture, name).

The designers allow you to change things a bit, to customize your equipment to suit your grand strategy. Certainly players that just repeatedly run the meta strategy will just use meta designs over and over. But then, I've noticed the meta has kept changing over the years.

Each designer has a "presets" button, so you don't really have to do anything if you're willing to use whatever design the game comes with. Click the button, click the picture of the Panther or Spitfire or whatever. But then, that's the same as just using whatever single unchangeable design the base game comes with, isn't it? Click the production button, click the picture of the Tank III or Fighter II or whatever. You don't have to learn anything about the current meta or what the designers let you do if you buy one of those DLCs. You can just keep using the predefined designs, just like the base game.

Giving up all the features of a DLC just to avoid a designer seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. If there's not enough value in a DLC to you, then by all means don't buy it. But fear of being forced to use a designer seems to me a bit overstated on the forum.

 

[Wenla]

Complexity = good thing.

 

[Mr.Supreme]

When I first began playing HOI4 I was a bit overwhelmed but I played HOI3 quite a bit beforehand. After like 4 hours i got the hang of it. That was a long time ago.

You're correct that the game is complicated. I have put in serious amount of time into HOI4 and have all the DLC. I'm still learning and I've been playing on and off for years. If someone is confused about something all they have to do is watch a YT tutorial or actually read the Wiki. Its not hard. I enjoy the complexity. Each DLC brings more to the table and prevents the game from becoming stale. Is HOI4 perfect? NO! But its a damn fine WW2 game.

 

[Soundwave]

Having a lot of micromanagement is far different from complexity, in fact is more a map painter than anything else.

The paradox "new" system of leave things underdeveloped to release dlcs later its quite annoying.

 

[Nikolai II]

Btw, I have 250 hours in the game, which I assume still means I am a newbie.

If we are speaking in memes, 250 hours means you have yet not left the tutorial phase, so haven't graduated to newbie yet.

(To also stay somewhat on topic, I do agree to the general sentiment of the thread that there is ample room for Quality of Life changes to make it more obvious how to research special projects (and many other QoL burdens that are yet to be fixed). But I don't necessarily agree that the added cost in political points is an issue. The game does want to have it's tradeoffs, and the difference in Radar maturity between nations did play a significant role in WW2)