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Amina144

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The problem with the Throughput modifier is that it only improves the efficiency of workforce, as increase in throughput increases both output and input but keeps workforce the same. But it doesn't improve the actual efficiency of the building as much due to most costs being input goods. So even a good strong 25% throughput bonus probably is only 5% better than default when you consider other factors. You have to stack the modifier crazy high to have significant advantage over someone else.

Now it makes sense for manufacturing processes to rely more on throughput, the more manufacture the more input material you need. However, the issue is that the game still relies on it in other sectors like resource extraction and farming. This makes any regional differences have very little advantage to each other, as I said above, even a large bonus is actually very weak in practice. A farm on highly fertile land is barely better than the one without, but the throughput bonuses makes even less sense as it increases input goods like Fertilizer and Tractors. Isn't the point of fertile land that you need less fertilizer in general? Both of these sectors should utilize output efficiency modifier way more, especially for these province level modifiers.

I hope they could implement this change with trade rework. Currently it is hard to justify trade unless you don't have the resource chain.
 
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The problem with the Throughput modifier is that it only improves the efficiency of workforce, as increase in throughput increases both output and input but keeps workforce the same. But it doesn't improve the actual efficiency of the building as much due to most costs being input goods. So even a good strong 25% throughput bonus probably is only 5% better than default when you consider other factors. You have to stack the modifier crazy high to have significant advantage over someone else.

There are a number of points though:
-you dont have to work with PM's that require input goods, at which point throughput fully applies to labor cost alone. As such, it also differentiates itselfs as a potential high yield "labor intensive industry" in comparison to a "capital intensive industry" where the latter in this game would be modeled by requiring more advanced inputs as in part "leasing its machinery/tools". The game also features circumstances where there are significantly lower labor costs afterall, so you can create some pretty extreme profit margins on labor intensive industries with throughput.

When you apply 100% throughput you double production but also double to input requirement. If said input requirement is 80% of the cost and labor is 20% of the cost you only make a 10% cost reduction trough throughput, will also increasing output and output per worker. If there is no input requirement like with early plantations for example then the cost reduction of 100% throughput is 50%, thats a lot more. It is notable that plantations can often get up to 150% throughput at which point they have the output of a nominal single plantation with upgrades pm. Such labor intensive methods quite favor country's that can fall back onto having significantly lower labor costs or who are utilizing slaves for example.

Secondly: "Throughput stacks" Assume just as example that 80% of clothes production lies in the cost of cotton and dye, but i have put a 150% throughput on cotton and dye and managed to make them 50% cheaper as a result while making their labor cost 66% less. Now i have also applied 100% throughput to these clothes factory, nominally that would only half its labor cost but since we also managed to half its input costs well we managed to half all the cost. This throughput stacking can also circle around in the case of iron/coal, steel and then tools back to iron and coal, the cost reductions affect industry down the line who affect more industry down the line and when the tools are hence 50% cheaper because all the rest was so much cheaper we come back to the miens using cheaper tools and providing even cheaper iron for cheaper steel and tools production.

Another thing to consider is that low labor costs often translate in competitive trade advantages or high dividend yields or both. This can have myriad function like for example for the purpose of trade and gaining tariffs or for the purpose of buffing the investment pool trough a x3 x2 x5 modifiers. Yes buff the investment pool to the point that it has the capacity of a country with x30 times your GDP, you would think Paradox have become careful about multiplicative modifiers but here we are. For Small country's highly profitable throughput industry's coupled with low labor costs can be something stronk indeed.

So i think you need to rethink what throughput can do for you with a few of these considerations in mind. Throughput can be quite powerfull for a varried number of strategies and especially when it acts in a chain from agricultural input for example to industrial output. If you have a great farming province that can produce coton, dyes and silk and can have very cheap labor then its not impossible to set up a center of clothes production there that can easily drop the rpice under half the market price and still be quite profitable, by the 70'/80' you can typically start to dump loads of clothes on various markets especially at that price.

Indeed, rethink even for many country's "if you albeit want to use upgraded PM's", i know it sounds silly and its usually no gain on the really longer term but for various reasons and for various buildings you can do some silly things with it. Like the concept for example of "paperless bureaucracy", which is intentionally running oversized bureaucracy's withought paper in part to make use of having more throughput on said bureaucracy's, but also knowing that said buildings PM's have relative few bureaucracy gain in contrast to tax capacity gain per level so that if your purpose is to produce bureaucracy that is cheaper per point of bureaucracy you can often make a gain by going paperless on them and just build more, and its good in that sense that nowadays they are cheap.
 
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Throughput also improves the efficiency of infrastructure usage, and construction points.

With a 25% throughput, you only need 4 buildings to get the same output as 5 normally, meaning you have a 20% reduction in required infrastructure, and in how much construction you need to do to get the required output, in addition to the wage efficiency.
 
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I was having a similar kind of thoughts recently, but regarding trade. Imagine a situation where you want to start producing your own engines instead of relying on British market to supply them. What's stopping you? Realistically mostly two things - quality and price. Due to economies of scale and years of experience, British engines will be significantly cheaper, than the ones you can start making, also "baby's first engine" just won't be as good and reliable, as the trusted British Empire Motor Inc., but both of those things are not represented in Vic3. There effectively is nothing stopping your from developing your domestic supply, which will be even better, as you won't deal with MAPI inefficiency.

So my thought was - wouldn't it be better if Economies of Scale boosted output, and not throughput. If by default many industries actually struggled, and needed to be larger, before they would actually turn a good profit, then it would be significantly harder to compete with imports from great powers. After all, your level 1 building just doesn't manage to turn a profit, especially when you keep on importing stuff, and the price isn't artificially high.

But the thing is, "Game needs to move beyond Throughput bonuses"... well, it's doing precisely that. It's adding a Competitive Advantage to trade. I don't know precisely how that's going to work, but it just might be a solution to what I listed above. From what I understand, it might mean a price of a good on the world market isn't high, but the main exporter is still earning a better share of it, by having a high advantage, which sorta simulates advantage of established exporters, and cheaper import prices.

Though I agree, there's a bit of too much focus on Throughput bonus. Especially with how overpowered plantation companies are right now, as they have basically no inputs (until pumpjacks), and instantly transfer ownership to capitalists (employed by company HQ), you can get those crazy huge plantations with over 100% output, and suddenly your private investment industrialization is carried by opium plantation barons. It could be nice to see more just plain output bonuses. Like if a mine is particularly abundant, so much so, that per worker it's getting you more coal, then why does it need more pickaxes?
 
As OP mentioned, output and throughput are two totally different things. Throughput is relevant for manufacturing, it just increases the efficency per worker/building level due to massive scaled industries.

BUT good farmland, rich ore veins, plenty of fish in the sea or vast forret areas should just be flat output bonuses. One acre of super fertile farm land just produces more as a normal one.

If we would move to such a system, it would be much easier to dump resources in foreign markets if you have such a massive advantage in producing them. Think about the scenario: The US produces grains in their super profitable great plains and can flood every market with it. With a flat bonus, these farms are also super profitable. With throughput, a lot of profits go to the extra input goods, a lot of income is lost to MAPI. This would free up A LOT OF workforce for other, more productive jobs in factories if it becomes easier to import resources.

Some historical scenarios: Wood and hardwood from Canada, iron ore from sweden, tea from China and later India, coffee from Brasil, fish from the northern Atlantic, Wine from Italy, Spain and California, Coal from Australia, oil in basically all early producing easy to reach fields, rubber from the south Americas, sugar and fruit from all tropical zones and more.
 
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As OP mentioned, output and throughput are two totally different things. Throughput is relevant for manufacturing, it just increases the efficency per worker/building level due to massive scaled industries.

BUT good farmland, rich ore veins, plenty of fish in the sea or vast forret areas should just be flat output bonuses. One acre of super fertile farm land just produces more as a normal one.

If we would move to such a system, it would be much easier to dump resources in foreign markets if you have such a massive advantage in producing them. Think about the scenario: The US produces grains in their super profitable great plains and can flood every market with it. With a flat bonus, these farms are also super profitable. With throughput, a lot of profits go to the extra input goods, a lot of income is lost to MAPI. This would free up A LOT OF workforce for other, more productive jobs in factories if it becomes easier to import resources.

Some historical scenarios: Wood and hardwood from Canada, iron ore from sweden, tea from China and later India, coffee from Brasil, fish from the northern Atlantic, Wine from Italy, Spain and California, Coal from Australia, oil in basically all early producing easy to reach fields, rubber from the south Americas, sugar and fruit from all tropical zones and more.
Yeah even looking at something like the Black Country modifier in Britain. The 15% throughput is pathetic and doesn't represent the Coal quality and ease of extraction that gave Britain massive coal advantage. Now of course overall British lands have high potential max size of Coal Mines, but it doesn't really matter since they will never have enough population to exploit them anyways.

If they are going to implement trade rework, such differences in advantage needs to be represented, otherwise the world market will be stuck in the limbo where all competitors have like barely 10% advantage over one another.
 
Also, correct me if im wrong, doesn’t throughput negatively impact automation PMs since they add input goods cost?

Yes it does, and it is fine for large scaled industries. The input/output ratio is still the same, you just need less workers and building levels for it.

But this makes no sense if a region just has better resources. Better resources should give more output for less invested input.
 
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Also, correct me if im wrong, doesn’t throughput negatively impact automation PMs since they add input goods cost?
That's... a fair observation. Since employment stays the same regardless of throughput, then yeah, the bigger the economy of scale, the more expensive the automation. And before someone says "buuuut actually that makes perfect sense", it also means the more fertile the region, the more tools are needed to cut on the workforce there. It hardly makes sense.

It should probably be the case (and who knows, maybe it actually already is), that goods added as inputs from automation, should not be subject to throughput increase.
 
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Some state traits increase output and others throughput as a means to represent land quality:


On the throughput not being representative of quality of the land:

  • Poor quality terrain: 100 input goods exploited by 20 workers produce 200 output goods
  • High quality terrain: 120 input goods exploited by 20 workers produce 240 output goods

As others have said, the quality of the terrain/vein does not justify an increase of input goods, IMHO It makes more sense to give output not throughput.

On the throughput use for economies of scale:

Workforce required to produce a good is divided into direct and indirect labour, with indirect labour also named overheads. These are the typical administrative works that are not directly related to the work on the field but necessarily for the business.

For me it makes sense throughput bonuses for economies of scale as multiple levels of a building will share administrative costs between them allowing to produce more but also requiring more goods as the efficiency of economies of scale is achieved in indirect costs not in direct costs.

One could argue that the indirect costs could be represented by the workforce ratio, decreasing the need of clerks and managerial labour in relation to direct labour. But the result would be the same, more output and input per worker.
 
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