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HolisticGod

Beware of the HoG
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Jul 26, 2001
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All,

Heh, well, teach me not to check a forum for a month... But I've been steaming off and on for winding up in the Victoria beta (which is not to say Victoria isn't an excellent game, because it is, or that my contribution to it wasn't utterly indespensible, because it wasn't) instead of this one. :D

I have a couple questions, primarily for the betas (if they can answer them under the NDA) or Johan (if he has time to answer them, in which case, you know, get back to work):

1. Do "laws," presumably the counterpart of DPs in EU II and policies in Victoria, naturally fall away and/or naturally come into being over time? Whether through events or some mechanism in the population, is there, I suppose, a random element in their promulgation? Or, at least, in their enforcement?

2. How difficult is it to pass a new law? Like a DP click or a policy initiative (as in, insanely easy and virtually without cost)? Or is there a chance of the nobility putting up such an opposition that it's impossible? Or is there a chance that it simply won't be enforced?

3. Is there a mechanism for simulating the Privy Councils, Parliaments, Estates-General and other aristocratic bodies that limited the power of the sovereign? I'm thinking specifically of the final formalization of the HRE and the Magna Carta, and the French parleys. Better put, even if they don't have a substantial part in the game engine (which'd be unfortunate but understandable) are they represented in some way? However abstractly.

4. In the same way, are there real ecumenical councils? The decisions that came out of these bodies, even though the player would not be directly involved, were profoundly important, whether in simple instructions to individual diocease or Christendom-defining Papal Bulls. What I'm thinking of are religious versions of the laws we've seen, and the ability to, whether at random or at set times (preferably called by the Pope or Patriarch AI) but always at once, send envoys and attempt to influence debate. (and yes, I know I'm a dreamer, but, you know, I'm not the only one... :D) Or some watered down form, even?

5. Taken to the furthest possible extent, how centralized can an empire become? Specifically the Roman and, as I'm sure they'll be modded in within a couple weeks of release, the Caliphates had this potential and occassionally fulfilled, and of course certain rulers, particularly the New Royalty, enjoyed a great level of control over their territories. Is it capped at 10%, as I read... Probably a year and a half ago... or just progressively difficult?

6. More feasibly, to what extent is it possible to accumulate titles? Inheriting vassal thrones directly is how the Habsburgs came to power...

7. I vaguely remember something about a four-tiered pop system, with Nobles, Burghers, Artisans and Peasents. I've looked around (for about a half hour), but I can't see much new information on how this is done now. Same as before? Different? In what way?

8. Are leader stats influenced through combat? (I imagine this has been asked and answered before, but I can't for the life of me find it)

:D I'm just full of them tonight. I'll leave it there-I realize much of this may still be top secret, but as it's gone gold and all that I figure it's worth a shot. At least insofar as any of this can be answered at all, I'd appreciate any information, however limited, even if it's just yes, no or kinda.

Oh, and of course, the most important question of them all, and probably one that just can't be answered but hell's bells:

Excluding fixable bugs and similiar issues...

Is MP playable? :D
 
I'll leave it there

I lied. :D

One more-is it possible for the Italian city states, and I suppose all free city states, to descend into fuedalism? The Sforza, Medici and Foscari families, though a bit ahead of the time period, accumulated so much power they were essentially a nobility-particularly, of course, the Medicis.
 
A lot of good questions to which there are very few answers. I've followed this forum intensively for the last two weeks and I can't say I can answer any of them with any certainty. Most of my knowledge is guesswork based on screenies (there is a thread that has collected all of them, look for it), and loose ideas from other forumites. And there is of course what Johan has said, but he's just answered some very general questions.
We'll all see when (if) the beta AAR's start dropping in, and definitely when we get the game.
It looks great though. :)
 
HolisticGod said:
All,
1. Do "laws," presumably the counterpart of DPs in EU II and policies in Victoria, naturally fall away and/or naturally come into being over time? Whether through events or some mechanism in the population, is there, I suppose, a random element in their promulgation? Or, at least, in their enforcement?
Um...tough to give you an answer to that. Laws in CK are not really like DPs in EU2. I only got Vicky last week (thanks to LD who found a copy for me) and I haven't had time to even crack open the jewel case, let alone play it, so I have no basis for comparison. I think NDA prevents me from giving this a proper answer but...

Once instituted, they are in place until you change them. In and of themselves, they are "static" as far as change or inforcement goes. There could be any number of reasons that you might wish to reconsider your current laws, some of them event-driven and others might be your only hope of saving your dynasty. I think I'd better leave it at that for now.

This is an old screenie that you might want to have a look at. There have been changes since then.

2. How difficult is it to pass a new law? Like a DP click or a policy initiative (as in, insanely easy and virtually without cost)? Or is there a chance of the nobility putting up such an opposition that it's impossible? Or is there a chance that it simply won't be enforced?
Easy to institute, but you may not change them very often and the response of your population and/or vassals and/or stands mightn't be fillled with enthusiasm. In such an instance, the "enforcement" of them would be at the point of a blade.

3. Is there a mechanism for simulating the Privy Councils, Parliaments, Estates-General and other aristocratic bodies that limited the power of the sovereign? I'm thinking specifically of the final formalization of the HRE and the Magna Carta, and the French parleys. Better put, even if they don't have a substantial part in the game engine (which'd be unfortunate but understandable) are they represented in some way? However abstractly.
Yes...in a somewhat limited/abstract way. The game will present you with pressures of this nature if you give it a good reason to. ;) (CK has a dynamic event system that is unlike what you're used to and reacts to your actions)

4. In the same way, are there real ecumenical councils? The decisions that came out of these bodies, even though the player would not be directly involved, were profoundly important, whether in simple instructions to individual diocease or Christendom-defining Papal Bulls. What I'm thinking of are religious versions of the laws we've seen, and the ability to, whether at random or at set times (preferably called by the Pope or Patriarch AI) but always at once, send envoys and attempt to influence debate. (and yes, I know I'm a dreamer, but, you know, I'm not the only one... :D) Or some watered down form, even?
Sort of...but not in the way I suspect you're thinking. There are religious laws, excommunications, etc. but there is not an independent Council engine that has far-reaching effects.

5. Taken to the furthest possible extent, how centralized can an empire become? Specifically the Roman and, as I'm sure they'll be modded in within a couple weeks of release, the Caliphates had this potential and occassionally fulfilled, and of course certain rulers, particularly the New Royalty, enjoyed a great level of control over their territories. Is it capped at 10%, as I read... Probably a year and a half ago... or just progressively difficult?
Not very, and the degree of centralization that you might be able to achieve depends on a great many factors. I would think that you might succeed for brief period of time before it all comes crumbling down (much like the Roman Empire did ;))

6. More feasibly, to what extent is it possible to accumulate titles? Inheriting vassal thrones directly is how the Habsburgs came to power...
You could amass quite a few...if you dare.

7. I vaguely remember something about a four-tiered pop system, with Nobles, Burghers, Artisans and Peasents. I've looked around (for about a half hour), but I can't see much new information on how this is done now. Same as before? Different? In what way?
I can't give many details. There are four stands: peasants, burghers, clergy and nobles. You will be less concerned with their populations, and more concerned with the otehr ways that they contribute to your realm.

8. Are leader stats influenced through combat? (I imagine this has been asked and answered before, but I can't for the life of me find it)
I can't answer that one. :)

Oh, and of course, the most important question of them all, and probably one that just can't be answered but hell's bells:

Excluding fixable bugs and similiar issues...

Is MP playable? :D
It seems to be the consensus of the beta team that CK MP will rock! In fact in my opinion it has the potential to eclipse EU2 in this regard.

One more-is it possible for the Italian city states, and I suppose all free city states, to descend into fuedalism? The Sforza, Medici and Foscari families, though a bit ahead of the time period, accumulated so much power they were essentially a nobility-particularly, of course, the Medicis.
Obliquely speaking, yes.
 
HolisticGod said:
Oh, and of course, the most important question of them all, and probably one that just can't be answered but hell's bells:

Excluding fixable bugs and similiar issues...

Is MP playable? :D

Believe me, I have extensively beta-tested the MP option and the game ROCKS! Oh the wonders I've seen! The crusades we've led! :cool:

Kevin
 
Eochaid said:
Believe me, I have extensively beta-tested the MP option and the game ROCKS! Oh the wonders I've seen! The crusades we've led! :cool:

Kevin

Sounds great! My only worry is that it will turn out as previous Paradox games - the betas say its great, the AARs sound great ... but the game turns out to need at least 3 patches before MP becomes somewhat stable and 5 before it becomes reasonably balanced :(
 
boromir said:
Sounds great! My only worry is that it will turn out as previous Paradox games - the betas say its great, the AARs sound great ... but the game turns out to need at least 3 patches before MP becomes somewhat stable and 5 before it becomes reasonably balanced :(

Aye. I remember all those breathless beta posts just before HoI's release claiming the game was totally stable, had no balance / interface / playability / historicity issues, pissed EU etc etc etc too well to be moved by anything other than AARs :D
 
Chris,

"Not very, and the degree of centralization that you might be able to achieve depends on a great many factors. I would think that you might succeed for brief period of time before it all comes crumbling down"

That is excellent news. :D

"It seems to be the consensus of the beta team that CK MP will rock! In fact in my opinion it has the potential to eclipse EU2 in this regard."

And that's even better. If it turns out to be true-and we now have two credible sources insisting it is-a lot of people are going to face my righteous told you so's for many years to come.

Appreciate all the answers.
 
Boromir,

I don't remember anything like that as far as HOI MP was concerned, and we certainly never made a single positive claim about Victoria MP during the beta.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :D The real issue isn't whether it's bug free-because it won't be-or stable-because it never is-but whether it's feasible to run a longterm MP game with relatively little trouble, something that requires great patience in HOI and is sadly impossible in Vic.
 
HolisticGod said:
Boromir,

I don't remember anything like that as far as HOI MP was concerned, and we certainly never made a single positive claim about Victoria MP during the beta.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :D The real issue isn't whether it's bug free-because it won't be-or stable-because it never is-but whether it's feasible to run a longterm MP game with relatively little trouble, something that requires great patience in HOI and is sadly impossible in Vic.

Well, it certainly happened for HOI SP. You may be correct about MP though.

You are certainly correct about HOI MP requiring quite a bit of patience (though sometimes we get relatively smooth games). I do wish Paradox would focus on MP more, as that is where weaknesses in game mechanics show up quick, resulting in benefits to SP play as well.

And yes, again you are correct that playing MP in Vic is impossible. Sadly, bug reports relating to MP play are ignored (this has lead to my group quiting Vic altogether). I hope this won't become the standard for CK too.
 
SP is way more imprtant than MP IMO.:)
 
Well, I never play MP, but I still play EU2.;) And I got that game right after it was released.:p But you're right, it's a matter of opinion.:)
 
T or Eochaid,

Is MP in CK 24 player?

And another small question if it is, just as a general impression, do you think there's enough substance in a fief (I'm thinking a sizable County/small Duchy or larger) that they'd be sufficiently entertaining in multiplayer?
 
HolisticGod said:
And another small question if it is, just as a general impression, do you think there's enough substance in a fief (I'm thinking a sizable County/small Duchy or larger) that they'd be sufficiently entertaining in multiplayer?

Well, IMO, Duchies are great to play (I myself rarely play kingdoms), and most counties can be great fun too. However, some teeny tiny counties can be a bit boring to play: the Orkneys or Rugen may, for example, be too small to be interesting in a slow-paced game such as MP.

Kevin
 
Eochaid said:
Well, IMO, Duchies are great to play (I myself rarely play kingdoms), and most counties can be great fun too. However, some teeny tiny counties can be a bit boring to play: the Orkneys or Rugen may, for example, be too small to be interesting in a slow-paced game such as MP.

I don't obviously know how weak the Orkneys are at start but you have to love that strategic position.
 
HolisticGod said:
T or Eochaid,

Is MP in CK 24 player?
Ponders NDA...

No. Or at least, not at present.

And another small question if it is, just as a general impression, do you think there's enough substance in a fief (I'm thinking a sizable County/small Duchy or larger) that they'd be sufficiently entertaining in multiplayer?
Definitely. As Eochaid said, playing the Orkneys or Faroes might be a bit like watching paint dry in MP (until the hammer inevitably falls), but other possibilities are intriguing. I expect one one very interesting MP varriant will be one where no one is allowed to select a kingdom and all must pick either duchies or relatively rich counties.



P.S. Rush: when you host such a game I will be seriously pissed off if I don't get an invite! :D
 
Chris,

If it isn't 24-yet, though this was easily modifiable in EU scenarios once Johan enabled it-then the question of minor powers is more or less moot, though I imagine playing counties would be a fun (if dangerous) challenge after a while.

The main thrust here is that, using Slarhost or Mowers (if he drifts back in) or Devil, we could organize up to twenty players in a successor game to the Machiavelli series (the third installment of which I attempted to GM-coming away with a great many valuable and, frankly, horrified insights). Full-tilt RP, except organized around a central story, drawing on the AAR fora more than the MP (I'm widely regarded on the same level as Damocles when it comes to game-breaking play, so it's a bit like Al Sharpton calling the kettle black, but nonetheless) and taking some broad cues from the Free Company, with which we both, I believe, have some experience. ;)

Even with eight, if we perhaps organize revolving nations or two sessions played by two different groups (much like teams A and B) forbidden contact with one another, that could be interesting... But I'm thinking something more like Tsunami.

Apart from that, you're always more than welcome to any MP game I'm a part of-a new one, in fact, is starting next Monday (possibly Tuesday) at 5:30 PM Pacific. Great group on its third game in a series (Cross, Quill and Sword), mostly Americans, couple canucks and one very dedicated European. Laid-back, somewhat dedicated to AARs and a loose sort of role-play. I am the only one known for tantrums, and mine are of course merely diplomacy by other means. :D

Usually goes for two-four hours, depending on Dave Lifford's wife and newborn baby, my virtually newborn girlfriend (emotionally speaking, that is :D, I'm not into any of that-at least to speak of here) and various other commitments. Though with a good host, we tend to clear twenty years or more per session.

Against our better judgment, we're going with a highly modified GC this time. You're certainly invited-just look up my ICQ above or, if you still have it, shoot me an e-mail. I'll even con Drew into listing you among the group veterans for assignments. :D