German ww2 casualty records, unreliable?

[Sunforged General]

There is some evidence that the Germans downplayed their own casualties by large margins. So why do we still take their records as fact. For all we know their records are falsifications.

We have the following 2 examples as evidence.

In 1939 In the Battle of Wizna, Poland, the German Wehrmacht officially claimed only a few dozen German soldiers died, but at least several hundred bodies of fallen German soldiers were exhumed from a local war cemetery. While Heinz Guderian admitted in his diaries that over 900 German soldiers died in this battle. Heinz Guderian has no reason to lie about that. The German high command has motive to lie about their results.


Battle of the Afsluitdijk, Netherlands.
The German report says two were killed on the 12th and three on the 13th. Local civilians said hundreds of Germans were killed, and the local dyke was filled with bodies. The Local civilians have no reason to lie about something like a dyke being filled with bodies. The German high command has motive to lie about their results.

I am currently looking for more evidence, but what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Radbod]

Battle of the Afsluitdijk, Netherlands.
The German report says two were killed on the 12th and three on the 13th. Local civilians said hundreds of Germans were killed, and the local dyke was filled with bodies. The Local civilians have no reason to lie about something like a dyke being filled with bodies. The German high command has motive to lie about their results.

I am currently looking for more evidence, but what are your thoughts on this?

Well this one is certainly a myth, it was brought in the world by Eppo Brongers, he admitted to it and later tried to correct it. But the myth keeps living.

The rumors among civilians where that, rumors. Now one saw it, everyone heard it.

Radbod

 

[Arilou]

Generally speaking, you can usually somewhat trust a side about it's own casualties. Not what they say in propaganda of course, but what they actually record. There's just too much of a hassle to falsify those kinds of records, and you need them relatively accurate in order to actually fight anyway. Enemy casualties OTOH are always estimates at best and shouldn't really be relied on for all sorts of reasons.

 

[Pyoro]

I don't think you'll find a perfect number for German (or for that matter anyone else's) causalities anywhere. So there's certainly instances where losses have been downplayed, or where confusion (about participants/their nationality, or just different methods of recording losses, or just because the situation was too disorderly to properly record every single loss) or deliberate destruction and/or falsification of records lead to improper conclusions, but if you want big divergences I think you'll mostly have to look at late 1944 and 1945; that's when stuff gets really chaotic and figures really unreliable.

 

[Sunforged General]

Well this one is certainly a myth, it was brought in the world by Eppo Brongers, he admitted to it and later tried to correct it. But the myth keeps living.

The rumors among civilians where that, rumors. Now one saw it, everyone heard it.

Radbod

Well even if the man lied, there is this. "German shock troops advanced down the narrow dike on bicycles.[3] The Dutch commander, Christiaan Boers, waited until they were within 800 m (870 yd) before he ordered machine-gun fire, making it difficult for the Germans to withdraw."

That situation has to involve more than just 5 German dead, I mean a German force stormed down a narrow land bridge, and the Dutch didnt start machine gun fire until they were a good way across the land bridge, meaning they could not retreat easily, being in an exposed position under machine gun fire, and yet the Germans claim they only suffered 5 dead total during the whole battle? It doesnt add up. Not to mention that was far from the only combat during the battle.

 

[MarcoRossolini]

800 metres is a long way away, especially if you're aiming with the Mk.1 eyeball. Guns, particularly when manned by people who are afraid, tired and don't have months of online shooter experience, tend to be relatively inaccurate. Getting away with "only" 5 dead isn't unreasonable to my mind.

There's a lot of noise of the Germans being dodgy with their accounting tank losses - with many vehicles being sent "for repairs" but never returning to action. I cannot confirm however. Their accounting of kills is infamously poor.

 

[gagenater]

800 metres is a long way away, especially if you're aiming with the Mk.1 eyeball. Guns, particularly when manned by people who are afraid, tired and don't have months of online shooter experience, tend to be relatively inaccurate. Getting away with "only" 5 dead isn't unreasonable to my mind.

There's a lot of noise of the Germans being dodgy with their accounting tank losses - with many vehicles being sent "for repairs" but never returning to action. I cannot confirm however. Their accounting of kills is infamously poor.

All this, and the road is on a dike. Once they come under fire they just jump off their bikes and take cover along the side away from the firing position which is a perfect custom made bulletproof earthwork fortification which the Germans are lined up alongside of in single file so there is no confusion or hangups between men as they drop into cover. After that it’s just a matter of finding out where the gun putting them under fire is and calling in artillery or an air strike.

 

[Sunforged General]

All this, and the road is on a dike. Once they come under fire they just jump off their bikes and take cover along the side away from the firing position which is a perfect custom made bulletproof earthwork fortification which the Germans are lined up alongside of in single file so there is no confusion or hangups between men as they drop into cover. After that it’s just a matter of finding out where the gun putting them under fire is and calling in artillery or an air strike.

Yeah they tried Artillery or Airstrikes. Unfortunately some of the Dutch machine guns were inside casemates with 9.8ft thick reinforced concrete walls. (Thats equivalent to Flak Tower walls, which easily withstood soviet 203mm howitzer shots.)

 

[bz249]

Yeah they tried Artillery or Airstrikes. Unfortunately some of the Dutch machine guns were inside casemates with 9.8ft thick reinforced concrete walls. (Thats equivalent to Flak Tower walls, which easily withstood soviet 203mm howitzer shots.)

Well than they have to choose another tactic, the German commander just use the "Raise dead" scroll he carried with him (if he is dead any platoon commander can activate the scroll due to the rigorous German training method) and then proceed.
(Own casulties are quite easy to track as the German population before and after the war was known).

 

[gagenater]

Yeah they tried Artillery or Airstrikes. Unfortunately some of the Dutch machine guns were inside casemates with 9.8ft thick reinforced concrete walls. (Thats equivalent to Flak Tower walls, which easily withstood soviet 203mm howitzer shots.)

Then they probably just went around, or waited for some other group to flank the position. No need to charge headlong into a position you can't take. Obviously they did it somehow, since the Netherlands fell swiftly after the outbreak of war.

 

[Wootles]

Then they probably just went around, or waited for some other group to flank the position. No need to charge headlong into a position you can't take. Obviously they did it somehow, since the Netherlands fell swiftly after the outbreak of war.

Just to make sure everyone is talking about the same kind of dyke, the Afsluitdijk is essentially a 32km long land bridge with water on both sides and it connects (shown in red) the northwest of the Netherlands with the northeast part.

Spoiler

Nowadays, it looks like this and I imagine it was a bit more narrow during the 1940's:

Spoiler

You cannot hide behind it unless you want to swim, and going around it defeats the entire purpose of the battle, since the initial idea was to get quick access to the province of North and strike the west coast from two sides. In the end all the other parts of the country fell quickly and after the bombing of Rotterdam the Dutch army command capitulated and ordered the remaining mainland troops under Dutch command, including the one still holding the Afsluitdijk, to surrender.

 

[gagenater]

Just to make sure everyone is talking about the same kind of dyke, the Afsluitdijk is essentially a 32km long land bridge with water on both sides and it connects (shown in red) the northwest of the Netherlands with the northeast part.

Spoiler

Nowadays, it looks like this and I imagine it was a bit more narrow during the 1940's:

Spoiler

You cannot hide behind it unless you want to swim, and going around it defeats the entire purpose of the battle, since the initial idea was to get quick access to the province of North and strike the west coast from two sides. In the end all the other parts of the country fell quickly and after the bombing of Rotterdam the Dutch army command capitulated and ordered the remaining mainland troops under Dutch command, including the one still holding the Afsluitdijk, to surrender.

Yep - that looks precisely like I thought it would only slightly bigger than I expected. The top/middle is high, where the road is, and the edges by the water where the rocks are is low. You jump off your bike, leave it lying in the road, and then walk/crawl over closer to the rocks by the water, and the high part (where the road is) provides complete 100% bulletproof cover from anyone trying to shoot at you from one end of the dike or the other with anything other than a mortar or high angle howitzer. And since the country surrendered without getting across this dike, the result is exactly what I would have expected when you told me they couldn't damage the machine gun mounting - they troops took cover until military events elsewhere forced the defenders to do something else (in this case being ordered to surrender). The defenders of the dike were outflanked on a strategic scale, and there was no longer anything for them to defend, because the country had already fallen.

Edit: since the German soldiers had nothing to do now, I expect most of them gradually worked their way back off the dike, or just camped out on the low parts waiting for the Dutch surrender. A very safe, but incredibly boring campaign for them. They might have suffered just as many casualties due to sickness and bicycle accidents if the gun hadn't been there.

 

[bz249]

Yep - that looks precisely like I thought it would only slightly bigger than I expected. The top/middle is high, where the road is, and the edges by the water where the rocks are is low. You jump off your bike, leave it lying in the road, and then walk/crawl over closer to the rocks by the water, and the high part (where the road is) provides complete 100% bulletproof cover from anyone trying to shoot at you from one end of the dike or the other with anything other than a mortar or high angle howitzer. And since the country surrendered without getting across this dike, the result is exactly what I would have expected when you told me they couldn't damage the machine gun mounting - they troops took cover until military events elsewhere forced the defenders to do something else (in this case being ordered to surrender). The defenders of the dike were outflanked on a strategic scale, and there was no longer anything for them to defend, because the country had already fallen.

BTW this quite a nice example of the "extreme luck" of the Germans during the Battle of France. They tried many things, with a few they got lucky, with other they got unlucky... but if you have a slight numeric advantage, better C3I, actual experience in moving large bodies of men and ample supply of munition the "lucky" situation will outnumber the "unlucky" ones.

 

[Radbod]

Then they probably just went around, or waited for some other group to flank the position. No need to charge headlong into a position you can't take. Obviously they did it somehow, since the Netherlands fell swiftly after the outbreak of war.

As Wootles said, going around isn’t a real option. The Germans decided that Kornwerderzand was too well defended. They were planning to land a force by ship in North Holland but by then the war was over in the Netherlands.

A map of Kornwerderzand, the red squares are bunkers. You can’t hide behind the dike it's completely covered with machineguns and cannons.

 

[gagenater]

As Wootles said, going around isn’t a real option. The Germans decided that Kornwerderzand was too well defended. They were planning to land a force by ship in North Holland but by then the war was over in the Netherlands.

A map of Kornwerderzand, the red squares are bunkers.

yep - as I noted - they went around and conquered the rest of the country - at that point isolated strong points like this were ordered to surrender, because there was no longer anything left for them to defend.

 

[Avernite]

yep - as I noted - they went around and conquered the rest of the country - at that point isolated strong points like this were ordered to surrender, because there was no longer anything left for them to defend.

Yeah, but outflanking a position meaning 'you have to beat the whole country' sure gives a very different tone than your remark in post #10.

That being said, I have no idea about how many Germans died, because everyone (Germans included) would know trying a real attack across the dyke would be suicidal, so the first attack was either a single-file 'hope there's noone' or a small 'hope there's only a few guys with rifles' probe. 5 dead and however many injured probably was enough to convince such a group to wait for artillery, then look again and conclude 'this is hopeless'.

 

[gagenater]

Yeah, but outflanking a position meaning 'you have to beat the whole country' sure gives a very different tone than your remark in post #10.

That being said, I have no idea about how many Germans died, because everyone (Germans included) would know trying a real attack across the dyke would be suicidal, so the first attack was either a single-file 'hope there's noone' or a small 'hope there's only a few guys with rifles' probe. 5 dead and however many injured probably was enough to convince such a group to wait for artillery, then look again and conclude 'this is hopeless'.

If they really HAD to get across, they would have found a way - earlier in this thread, they noted that plans were being made to flank the dike defenses with an amphibious landing to bypass the strong point - it just turned out the battle was over before this was able to be implemented. the Netherlands is such a small country that the whole thing is smaller than the city I live in, so it's not as if outflanking the whole country is an unreasonable expectation.

 

[Yakman]

If they really HAD to get across, they would have found a way - earlier in this thread, they noted that plans were being made to flank the dike defenses with an amphibious landing to bypass the strong point - it just turned out the battle was over before this was able to be implemented. the Netherlands is such a small country that the whole thing is smaller than the city I live in, so it's not as if outflanking the whole country is an unreasonable expectation.

concur. after all, that's what you build tanks and ground attack aircraft for.

from the discussion here, it doesn't seem like the Dutch defenders would have been so deadly, or the germans so stupid. it's likely that the Germans were correct - they advanced, took some fire at long range, had a few casualties, the remainder took cover and Bob's your uncle.

 

[Radbod]

If they really HAD to get across, they would have found a way - earlier in this thread, they noted that plans were being made to flank the dike defenses with an amphibious landing to bypass the strong point - it just turned out the battle was over before this was able to be implemented. the Netherlands is such a small country that the whole thing is smaller than the city I live in, so it's not as if outflanking the whole country is an unreasonable expectation.

Well the plan to land troops by ship in to North Holland was completely bonkers:

1) The Germans hoped that they could capture ships on the Frisian site of the IJselmeer. Off course the Dutch navy took the ships away before the Germans were near.
2) The Dutch navy was patrolling the IJselmeer.
3) Ships going in to the IJselmeer have to go by the sluices of Kornwerderzand or Den Oever. Both places have heavy fortifications and are under Dutch control.

The attack of the 1.Kavaleriedivision was a flanking operation of the X. Armeekorps with no chance of success.

 

[Henry IX]

One of the problems with casualty estimates is that even when good records are being kept with honesty it is hard to define exactly what a casualty is. How injured or sick does a soldier actually have to be to be a casualty? Killed is a more certain measure (barring raise the dead scrolls...) but these numbers are often not recorded and even when they are many of the dead will be listed as missing, particularly when the combat takes place in dense terrain such as forests or marshlands. Most armies had different standards for what is a casualty and what isn't.

As a side note, there is an often repeated factoid that disease caused more casualties than enemy action in every war before the Korean war. While this is true, it is also misleading. At least during the 19th and 20th centuries, soldiers would generally survive disease and return to the front line in a far greater proportion than injured soldiers would. Hence an army could sustain a far greater rates of disease related casualties as these would mostly rapidly return to the front as compared to injuries.