Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Germany, 1936 Scenario and 1.03b

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
unmerged(5553)

unmerged(5553)

Captain
Aug 29, 2001
442
0
Visit site
So does anybody else wonder if 1.03b has killed Germany's chances of winning the 1936 scenario in a large MP game? By augmenting Soviet manpower and cutting IC gain from occupied provinces to 20%, Paradox seems to have severely tilted the balance of power, when I already thought the balance was heavily in favor of the Soviets. I'm starting to think of ways to mod the scenario to give the Germans some advantages, like making a lot more provinces around Germany national provinces for the Germans. Thoughts?
 
The Soviets were damaged in 1.03b as well. The purges don't cause a drop in dissent anymore, so the Soviets can't declare war on anyone. They can't even really declare war on the Germans, even if they dishonor the M-R pact, because the 10 dissent and no decrease in consumer goods will kill them. If the Soviets do well in the war and take some German VP provinces, their consumer goods will skyrocket, effectively killing their economy. I would say that Germany now has free reign to do what they want without fear of retribution in 1.03b.
 
The Soviets

The Purges SHOULDN'T cause a drop in dissent. That was nonsensical. The Purges should CAUSE dissent. The Purges masticated the economy and emasculated the Army. The way the Purges were implemented in the game was absurd. They've improved it somewhat now, but it is still an underpowered event. The Soviets pay very little penalty in game terms for an event that wiped out HALF their entire officer corps and much of their intelligentsia and professional class.

The other thing you reference, the consumer goods, are you saying that even if Germany DOWs the Soviets, that Soviet taking of German provinces will cause Soviet CG needs to go up?

I think once again, Paradox became over-ambitious on a patch and introduced a lot of major changes that were not thoroughly thought through.
 
Purges: i agree that they are still underpowered in the game. but it's a huge improvement. IMO, purges should cause 5% dissent if not accepted by the player (see dissent as officers conspiring against stalin) as they are now or, if accepted, loss of one tech land doctrine. After all, the result of purges were that red army lost officers and so organization.

Dissent: now it's better for Germany. Cause SU can't attack any nation without getting dissent and won't have the consumer reduction if attack first.
If Germany DOW SU it means the player think to win. It's right SU keeps its low consumer good reduction.

Manpower: it doesn't change a lot. when in a MP SU run out of manpower? when SU runs out of mapower, even if in 1.03, it means SU has like 350 divisions. axis is lost anyway.

Industry: it's realistic and correct that industry is taken only by 20% when owned by enemy. This will maybe stop the unhistorical germany taking over all his potential allies.

So, generally, i think Paradox made all good improvements. Only things still to be tweacked are the purges (like i said before, take out a land doctrines for every purge) and maybe a reduction in SU starting industrial power and army in '36 scenario.
 
Good Counter Point Biggles

Originally posted by Mr.Bigglesworth
The Soviets were damaged in 1.03b as well. The purges don't cause a drop in dissent anymore, so the Soviets can't declare war on anyone. They can't even really declare war on the Germans, even if they dishonor the M-R pact, because the 10 dissent and no decrease in consumer goods will kill them. If the Soviets do well in the war and take some German VP provinces, their consumer goods will skyrocket, effectively killing their economy. I would say that Germany now has free reign to do what they want without fear of retribution in 1.03b.
Click to expand...

Your last sentence though I dont agree with but upon further examining the Readme it would seem that Russia has been modified to a greater degree and really it will have to pay a price for war. I think its realistic to a degree the increase in consumer goods for captured VP provinces is a realistic addition, but the consumer goods for a DOW isnt.

Its a clear exploit in prior versions for the Russian player and that has been corrected but my preference would have been to see the consumer goods on a more of a variable continum. Germany starts taking countries for each province there should be a percent that it lowers Russian consumer goods if Russia DOW's anyone. That would be the compramise, I dont know if its possible but corrilating German taking of VP provinces with a direct reduction of consumer goods for a Russian DOW based on some equation might be the counter.

I think Paradox did the best they could here, Russia was way over powered in 1.03, and 1.03b corrects some of those disparities, in addition the increase manpower makes for a game where the russian player will have to play his hand over the long haul with the consumer goods high. Before you could lower them by 80% and pump out inf, now your Ic's are a little more precious but your manpower has increased monthly (If I recall correctly) 25% therefore making it more advisable to make improved armaments rather then pump out the max inf early.

Maybe that was the goal. The purges are a step in the right direction, overall I agree with fpolli it had a much more devastating affect but there is only so much you can do to via dissent and not cripple a country. I think 1.03b is a nice improvement, its nice to have a company that actually supports thier products for the long haul. Although I have had my issues as of late here, I can say absolutely Paradox excels in support thier games.

Odin
 
Originally posted by KaiserGab
a question: the no reduction of goods for SU attacking first applies only if SU attacks Germany or if SU attacks every country?
Click to expand...

In previous patches, USSR would not have a reduction in CG if they went to war with anyone, except for Germany. I assume its the same, only with the further caveat that there will be no change when USSR DoWs Germany.

Basically, they made it so that the Soviet Union waits passively while Germany builds up to attack them, with no real ability to be proactive. Even the Winter War is stupid for the USSR to get into.
 
Re: The Soviets

Originally posted by fpolli
The Soviets pay very little penalty in game terms for an event that wiped out HALF their entire officer corps and much of their intelligentsia and professional class.
Click to expand...

How do you know the penalty for the purges isn't inherent in the starting conditions for the scenario, such as the low org and horribly inefficient industry? And without winter having any attrition effects on the German armies, the Soviets need some advantage.

Originally posted by fpolli
The other thing you reference, the consumer goods, are you saying that even if Germany DOWs the Soviets, that Soviet taking of German provinces will cause Soviet CG needs to go up?
Click to expand...

Not exactly. In 1.02, when Germany and USSR were not at war, regardless of whether USSR was at war with anyone else, the Soviet CG percentage was based on their war entry, which was based on the aggressive actions of the Germans. Whenever Germany lost control of a vp province, the CG percentage would skyrocket up, regardless of whether the province was taken back or not. If Germany and USSR were at war, the CG percentage would be very low.

My nightmare scenario, unproved so far because I haven't gotten there: Soviets DOW Germany, take a couple vp provinces (causing CG percentage to shoot up), then get stalled or pushed back. Now Germany will have 500 or so ICs to use on research and production, while USSR will have 100 or 200. Hardly a fair fight.
 
Re: Good Counter Point Biggles

Originally posted by Odin1970
Your last sentence though I dont agree with...
Click to expand...

Why, what's stopping Germany? As long as they have a comparable military, it is now stupid for USSR to attack them. They will actually LOSE production, in addition to the decrease in fighting power. To declare war, USSR has to hope for a quick victory, or else the production disparity will be too great.

Originally posted by Odin1970
I think its realistic to a degree the increase in consumer goods for captured VP provinces is a realistic addition, but the consumer goods for a DOW isnt.
Click to expand...

I agree with the first point, but the problem is that if the province is taken back, CG percentage does not go back down! One game the other night, France took Essen, Germany took it back, France took it back, and my CG were penalized TWICE!

For your second point, every other country in HoI has their consumer goods go down when they are at war, but it's not historical for USSR's to?
 
Re: Re: Good Counter Point Biggles

Originally posted by Mr.Bigglesworth
For your second point, every other country in HoI has their consumer goods go down when they are at war, but it's not historical for USSR's to?
Click to expand...

I concede here, good point, well made. You are absolutely correct, USSR should get a reduced CG benefit for a DOW, and dependant on whom the dissent should vary as well.


Originally posted by Mr.Bigglesworth
Why, what's stopping Germany? As long as they have a comparable military, it is now stupid for USSR to attack them. They will actually LOSE production, in addition to the decrease in fighting power. To declare war, USSR has to hope for a quick victory, or else the production disparity will be too great.
Click to expand...

Nothing is stopping Germany except your Manpower. Clearly this is an attempt to make Russia more historical and not the power it is in 1.03. I agree its a dramatic shift but it takes the "fantasy" aspect out of a Russian power in 36-39 before Poland. I wont argue potential historic outcomes but Russia was not an offensive nation until it was attacked first. Which for Paradoxes part they captured with the decrease of CG from a german DOW only. It dramatically changes Russia in the 36 scenario, no longer can it be an offensive jugernaut nor should it be. Nothing should stop germany except for distance, supply and manpower, that would be historically accurate and in my opinion this addition captures that historic reality to the best degree it could. In addition the IC penalties for captured provinces for Germany and the 50% reduction rate in movements suggest to me that that was the aim.

Odin
 
Last edited:
Re: Good Counter Point Biggles

Originally posted by Odin1970
I think Paradox did the best they could here, Russia was way over powered in 1.03, and 1.03b corrects some of those disparities, in addition the increase manpower makes for a game where the russian player will have to play his hand over the long haul with the consumer goods high. Before you could lower them by 80% and pump out inf, now your Ic's are a little more precious but your manpower has increased monthly (If I recall correctly) 25% therefore making it more advisable to make improved armaments rather then pump out the max inf early.
Click to expand...
It actually increased sixthfold, when you use the right minister.

Anyway, USSR certainly wasn't overpowered in 1.03, IMHO.
 
Originally posted by Mr.Bigglesworth
In previous patches, USSR would not have a reduction in CG if they went to war with anyone, except for Germany. I assume its the same, only with the further caveat that there will be no change when USSR DoWs Germany.

Basically, they made it so that the Soviet Union waits passively while Germany builds up to attack them, with no real ability to be proactive. Even the Winter War is stupid for the USSR to get into.
Click to expand...
Well, you just sit there, true. But its not like you wait till Germany attacks you, if Germany don't your CG demand drops anyway, and it will drop to the level not much different when you are at war with Germany.
 
Re: Re: Good Counter Point Biggles

Originally posted by DarthMaur
It actually increased sixthfold, when you use the right minister.

Anyway, USSR certainly wasn't overpowered in 1.03, IMHO.
Click to expand...

I disagree on this. I personally won in all MP i played as SU and in majority MP i played as other countries, SU was victorious most of times.

So, either SU is always picked by very good players (but it's not the case) or SU is advantaged.

In RL, SU got very close to defeat so i assume this should be also the outcome of most of HoI games if sides are balanced.
However, SU in most games annex germany already before '40 and when not, it's only cause people put out some house rules to prevent that.
 
SU is under powered

I agree with Bigglesworth. I have read and re-read and read again. I play SU almost all the time.

1.03b makes SU no fun. What can they do? They can't attack.
They can't even counter attack.

And yet I haven't even had a chance to play 1.03b yet!

SU was not over powered in 1.03. Just don't use the exploits, Like DOW Germany in 36.

There's other things I don't like, ex: reduction of speed by 50%.
Have you read about the time it takes to move into a province in winter? 2 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In summer its 2weeks.
 
Re: SU is under powered

Originally posted by GLENN
I agree with Bigglesworth. I have read and re-read and read again. I play SU almost all the time.

1.03b makes SU no fun. What can they do? They can't attack.
They can't even counter attack.

And yet I haven't even had a chance to play 1.03b yet!

SU was not over powered in 1.03. Just don't use the exploits, Like DOW Germany in 36.

There's other things I don't like, ex: reduction of speed by 50%.
Have you read about the time it takes to move into a province in winter? 2 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In summer its 2weeks.
Click to expand...


Well, i like the speed thing. It makes hard to fight in winter, as it happened in RL in SU. Germans were never able to attack on winter, and could barely move their troops and tanks due to the low temperatures.

For SU, it makes the same fun as to play USA. I think it's correct if we want a realistic scenario.
SU in RL didn't attack anyone and could barely win a partial victory with Finland. I think it's unrealistic as it was before, where SU was able to conquer countries after countries in few weeks.
 
Interesting that some (most?) haven't played 1.03b yet in MP but already whine its unbalanced :D.

I don't think the patch has been out long enough for anyone to be an expert at 1.03b yet.

Besides, game balance can nearly always be tweaked by simply assigning which majors are human controlled and which aren't.

b.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back