Government of Liao and Jin

[SupremTurtle]

In the most recent dev diary, Kara Khitai/West Liao was revealed to have nomadic gov with high dominance, but the dev admitted that it is not the best representation of Liao’s government, and it will be worked on it in All under Heaven.

Liao and Jin’s government form should not just be nomadic or Chinese administrative, and I propose that it should be a mix of both. When the Khitans conquered parts of northern China, they realized that it was impossible to govern the Chinese the same as the steppes, and adapted Chinese bureaucratic governance. However, they did not completely adapt it: they only adapted it for the Chinese provinces and for the central government, and not for the steppes and other tribes. In game, this would be equivalent of having Chinese administrative vassals in the South, nomad vassals in the Northwest, and tribal vassals and tributaries in the Northeast, while the court being a mix of the three.

This government form should be available to any nomadic/tribal(the Khitans were nomadic while the Jurchens were tribal) character with empire title that conquered a good chunk of northern China, and should have access to both the nomadic/tribal system and the Chinese administrative and mandate system, whatever that may be.

While it may be a complex government system, I do hope that is implemented, as neither administrative, nomadic, nor tribal can fully represent Liao and Jin’s form of government. The government can also represent Yuan, to a certain extent, as well.

 

[Videogames]

It certainly is a fascinating system of dual government they developed. I do hope that the nomadic government has an interesting way of handling rule over settled peoples. I do suspect it's unlikely that there will be a specific Nomad/Chinese hybrid though, simply because that's content that specifically hybridizes items from two different paid DLCs, and they have to accommodate players having one but not the other.

 

[Mercedes Romero]

I think it'd be well-represented as a small Chinese government state with multiple nomadic tributaries.

 

[Duarte]

I think it'd be well-represented as a small Chinese government state with multiple nomadic tributaries.

for the Kara-Khitai sure that would be fine, but for the Liao themselves it's less clear cut, the during their haydy the Liao foten had verry direct administrative relations with their nomadic vassals, if memory serves the kumo XI where essentialy fully integrated with the administrative apparatus while remaining nomadic

 

[riadach]

Mixed systems would be a idea in many places. Would reflect the conflict amongst the abbasids within the persian administrative government and the clans and tribes at the periphery. We'll probably get a head of bureacracy with AUH, a Grand Chancellor or so. Maybe in mixed realms that could be used to manage bureaucratic vassals with direct interaction with nomads/clans.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

I think it'd be well-represented as a small Chinese government state with multiple nomadic tributaries.

This should allow Herd to be used though, is the big thing. Yuan/Jin/Liao should probably still have dominance and herd even if it's not as important to them comparatively.

 

[klopkr]

Thank you for raising this point OP!

This is a serious and unnecessary limitation they're building into the Nomadic government. Many, if not arguably nearly all Nomads ruled non-nomadic areas within their realm through the non-nomadic systems in place.

Liao, Jin, Yuan, Kara-Khitai. Even arguably the Seljuks and early Hungarians.

Nomadic governments should not be hardcoded as uniquely their government and incompatible with other government types. They should be an addition to other government types, like a secondary government. (Ideally no government would be mutually exclusive but that would be a big rework).

For a nomadic-administrative realm you should have all the administrative realm mechanics that deal with vassalage and governance for lands outside of the nomadic regions. Then on top of that you would have the nomadic mechanics that only apply for lands within the nomadic region. Your succession style might be more nomadic and you may have both types of CBs. You may have heards and taxation and different types of vassals. Basically for many government mechanics whether they apply would be based on the region you are operating in.

You would also have to face some of the issues of this system, it's not all upsides. You could choose to settle your Yurt in a county with a holding and make it your static capital. Doing so would make the Nomadic parts of your realm significantly more likely to rebel and break off. They may even send you an ultimatum, or upon succession choose to become a tributary and force you to use a CB to revassalize them.

Similarly if you never settle your Yurt in a capital then your non nomadic subjects become significantly more rebellious and may even invite same faith, same government type realms to attack you and subsume them.

Also an aside but someone else mentioned in the last Dev Diary thread that the Steppe should have cities and cities were often capitals of Nomadic realms and I couldn't agree more. They might be destroyable and razeable by nomadic CB but they should be there.

I really wish the Devs had thought ahead more with the government systems and worked from a common frame work so they could blend better with eachother. This is repeated every time they add a new government type and was even brought up with the original base game government types. It's not too late, but the more they go down the road the worse it'll get. Governments were and still are fundementally fluid structures their design should reflect that. EU4 understood this well and because of it unique government types and switching between them has worked pretty well for a long time in that game.

 

[SupremTurtle]

I think it'd be well-represented as a small Chinese government state with multiple nomadic tributaries.

The thing is Liao’s nomadic possessions were firmly under their control, as besides claiming the Chinese emperorship they were also claiming the title of Gurkhan. It wouldn’t make much sense for their nomadic vassals to be tributaries when Liao os able to rally their armies and raise taxes.

 

[SupremTurtle]

Thank you for raising this point OP!

This is a serious and unnecessary limitation they're building into the Nomadic government. Many, if not arguably nearly all Nomads ruled non-nomadic areas within their realm through the non-nomadic systems in place.

Liao, Jin, Yuan, Kara-Khitai. Even arguably the Seljuks and early Hungarians.

Nomadic governments should not be hardcoded as uniquely their government and incompatible with other government types. They should be an addition to other government types, like a secondary government. (Ideally no government would be mutually exclusive but that would be a big rework).

For a nomadic-administrative realm you should have all the administrative realm mechanics that deal with vassalage and governance for lands outside of the nomadic regions. Then on top of that you would have the nomadic mechanics that only apply for lands within the nomadic region. Your succession style might be more nomadic and you may have both types of CBs. You may have heards and taxation and different types of vassals. Basically for many government mechanics whether they apply would be based on the region you are operating in.

You would also have to face some of the issues of this system, it's not all upsides. You could choose to settle your Yurt in a county with a holding and make it your static capital. Doing so would make the Nomadic parts of your realm significantly more likely to rebel and break off. They may even send you an ultimatum, or upon succession choose to become a tributary and force you to use a CB to revassalize them.

Similarly if you never settle your Yurt in a capital then your non nomadic subjects become significantly more rebellious and may even invite same faith, same government type realms to attack you and subsume them.

Also an aside but someone else mentioned in the last Dev Diary thread that the Steppe should have cities and cities were often capitals of Nomadic realms and I couldn't agree more. They might be destroyable and razeable by nomadic CB but they should be there.

I really wish the Devs had thought ahead more with the government systems and worked from a common frame work so they could blend better with eachother. This is repeated every time they add a new government type and was even brought up with the original base game government types. It's not too late, but the more they go down the road the worse it'll get. Governments were and still are fundementally fluid structures their design should reflect that. EU4 understood this well and because of it unique government types and switching between them has worked pretty well for a long time in that game.

I’d like to point out that the Jin Jurchens were not a nomadic people, but sedentary hunter-farmers, and had no direct relations to the steppe peoples. The Jurchens, after defeating Liao and Northern Song, essentially inherited Liao’s government structure, with tribal vassals in the Northeast and Chinese vassals in the South (The Jin dynasty did not pursue the Khitan’s steppe holdings, which lead to a power vacuum in the Mongol highlands, creating the condition for a certain Temujin to rise).

The Jurchens, in contrast to the Khitans, was much more susceptible to Chinese influence. When Jin occupied Northern China, a large number of Jurchens settled in Northern China and very rapidly sinicized. In fact, they were so sinicized that after the Yuan dynasty was established and a population census was conducted, it was impossible to distinguish a Jurchen from a Han Chinese in Northern China.

The Khitan, on the other hand, attempted to maintain their own identity through the existence of the Liao dynasty (although one argument for their fall to the Jin was that they were too sinicized and failed to rally their tribal vassals against the Jurchens). Nonetheless, after lossing China, the Khitans were able to dominate Central Asia via their administrative government until the arrival of the Mongols.

 

[ray243]

The thing is Liao’s nomadic possessions were firmly under their control, as besides claiming the Chinese emperorship they were also claiming the title of Gurkhan. It wouldn’t make much sense for their nomadic vassals to be tributaries when Liao os able to rally their armies and raise taxes.

This might be why we are seeing a new hegemon title. It allows you to hold two different empires titles at same time with potentially different government for both?

 

[CK2Benchmarks]

We'll have to see how nomadic governments play out and how they interact with the China content in AUH. I'm concerned about this as well but there's just not enough info right now to go off of. I certainly do hope there is content that simulates the Khitan and Jurchen situations regarding their multi-modal government. More so the Khitan than the Jurchens.

 

[Pigposting]

This might be why we are seeing a new hegemon title. It allows you to hold two different empires titles at same time with potentially different government for both?

Hegamons are probably the pathway we'll have to finally simulate dual-monarchies or two titles with vastly different systems of governance despite being held by the same guy. I think the devs are slowly building up the tools for it to be actually possible, such is regents, co-rulers, tributaries and soon hegemons.

 

[ray243]

Hegamons are probably the pathway we'll have to finally simulate dual-monarchies or two titles with vastly different systems of governance despite being held by the same guy. I think the devs are slowly building up the tools for it to be actually possible, such is regents, co-rulers, tributaries and soon hegemons.

I am glad that the devs is at least saying the current and upcoming Grand Liao nomad government isn't going to be final version and will require more rework once AUH is added.

 

[klopkr]

@SupremTurtle

After a little further reading I see what you mean. Only some were 'semi-noamdic' whatever that means and not the Jin.

I do expect the 'semi-nomadic jurchens to just be nomadic in game though. But it seems they would be more like administrative with some tribal lands probably. Which plays okish already.

 

[SupremTurtle]

@SupremTurtle

After a little further reading I see what you mean. Only some were 'semi-noamdic' whatever that means and not the Jin.

I do expect the 'semi-nomadic jurchens to just be nomadic in game though. But it seems they would be more like administrative with some tribal lands probably. Which plays okish already.

All respects to you, but Jurchens was in no shape or form nomadic or semi-nomadic. The only reason, in my opinion, that made people think that the Jurchens were nomadic people, is EU4, where the Jurchen tribes mistakenly have the nomadic tribe government.

A quick view of the Jurchen homeland on Google Earth, today Northeastern China and Russian Far East, reveals why they were not nomadic: it is a region with endless forested hills. Yes, there are some plains, but nasty swamps and an average of over a meter of snow in the winter simply prevents mass herding in the region. Given the geography, it’s simply impossible for them to be nomads.

Hunter, fisher, and farmer was what the Jurchens were, although the ratio of what they do depends on their proximity to China: those closer did more farming, while those further away conducted more hunting and fishing. It’s not just influence from China, but as mentioned before, the cold weather in the north not only prevents herding but also prevents agriculture from taking place.

For Jin, the founder belonged one of the northernmost Jurchen tribe, roughly where Amursk is right now. They were referred to, by Liao, Song, and the Southern Jurchen tribes, as “Wild Jurchens”(野女真), which implies that even other Jurchen tribes considered them to have a more barbaric lifestyle, also suggesting that the Jurchens in the south had a more sedentary lifestyle. Either way, none of the Jurchens were nomadic or semi-nomadic. It is a EU4 mistake that became a common myth within the paradox circle.

 

[Azgabeth]

I mean objectively all these separate government systems should be designed in such a way that they can be combined…

 

[AHumpierRogue]

All respects to you, but Jurchens was in no shape or form nomadic or semi-nomadic. The only reason, in my opinion, that made people think that the Jurchens were nomadic people, is EU4, where the Jurchen tribes mistakenly have the nomadic tribe government.

A quick view of the Jurchen homeland on Google Earth, today Northeastern China and Russian Far East, reveals why they were not nomadic: it is a region with endless forested hills. Yes, there are some plains, but nasty swamps and an average of over a meter of snow in the winter simply prevents mass herding in the region. Given the geography, it’s simply impossible for them to be nomads.

Hunter, fisher, and farmer was what the Jurchens were, although the ratio of what they do depends on their proximity to China: those closer did more farming, while those further away conducted more hunting and fishing. It’s not just influence from China, but as mentioned before, the cold weather in the north not only prevents herding but also prevents agriculture from taking place.

For Jin, the founder belonged one of the northernmost Jurchen tribe, roughly where Amursk is right now. They were referred to, by Liao, Song, and the Southern Jurchen tribes, as “Wild Jurchens”(野女真), which implies that even other Jurchen tribes considered them to have a more barbaric lifestyle, also suggesting that the Jurchens in the south had a more sedentary lifestyle. Either way, none of the Jurchens were nomadic or semi-nomadic. It is a EU4 mistake that became a common myth within the paradox circle.

I will note as an aside though that particularly the later Jurchen/Manchu under the Qing did practice a very steppe like martial culture, which allowed them to integrate mongol subjects far better than many chinese dynasties had. It's just this was an intentionally cultivated image built off the backs of an agricultural base of serfs and slave labor where the riders were a small percentage class of their own, not unlike European Knights. As opposed to the mass mobilization you might expect from steppe cultures. Likewise their animals were private and not from communal herds.

I do not know if this holds true for the Jurchen of the games start though; I assume the style I am talking about was a later development(im also lead to believe the farmer-fisher-herder dichotomy became increasingly oriented to farming in parts of the region by Manchu times). Still, it's interesting is all.

 

[Videogames]

I do not know if this holds true for the Jurchen of the games start though; I assume the style I am talking about was a later development(im also lead to believe the farmer-fisher-herder dichotomy became increasingly oriented to farming in parts of the region by Manchu times). Still, it's interesting is all.

I read that the Liao did teach steppe warfare techniques to the Jurchens prior to the 1120s in order to better use them as subjects. And that's what enabled the Jurchens to fight and overthrow the Liao, and later overrun northern China from the Song.

 

[SupremTurtle]

I will note as an aside though that particularly the later Jurchen/Manchu under the Qing did practice a very steppe like martial culture, which allowed them to integrate mongol subjects far better than many chinese dynasties had. It's just this was an intentionally cultivated image built off the backs of an agricultural base of serfs and slave labor where the riders were a small percentage class of their own, not unlike European Knights. As opposed to the mass mobilization you might expect from steppe cultures. Likewise their animals were private and not from communal herds.

I do not know if this holds true for the Jurchen of the games start though; I assume the style I am talking about was a later development(im also lead to believe the farmer-fisher-herder dichotomy became increasingly oriented to farming in parts of the region by Manchu times). Still, it's interesting is all.

When Nurhaci established Later Jin and proclaimed Manchu, it wasn’t just Jurchens that was under Aisin Gioro’s banner. Northeastern Chinese, some Koreans, and Korchin Mongols all swore fealty to Later Jin, and they were all “proclaimed” as Manchu. It wasn’t necessarily ethnic Jurchen Manchus that were the elite riders you mentioned, but rather the ethnic Korchin Manchus.

Manchu is a very unique and complex concept, which evolved during its existence. When Manchu was proclaimed, it referred to the peoples that were loyal to the Aisin Gioro house (most of the Jurchens, most of the Korchin Mongols, some Chinese and Koreans) and not exclusively an ethnic term. It is only after the conquest of China that Manchu increasingly became an ethnic term(especially after the partition of the Manchu banners into the Manchu banners, Mongol banners, and Han banners).

Back on topic, it was the Korchins that were the steppe riders and horses breeders for the rest of the Manchu banners. In addition, it was the experience dealing with the Korchins that helped the Qing dynasty deal with the other Mongol groups, granting them noble titles and herding rights, essentially making it difficult for the Mongols to reunite under any Khan other than the Manchu emperor.

Also, with regards to the hunting-fishing-farming situation, while farming definitely increased during Qing’s time, it was still the little ice age and most of the land north of Liaoning remained unsuitable for farming. It is only after the little ice age did the region became suitable for farming, bit that is the 1850s and the Qing dynasty was in its steady decline.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Liao and Jin’s government form should not just be nomadic or Chinese administrative, and I propose that it should be a mix of both.

Based off of this, I propse bureaucratic be a government type of its own that could mix and match with other government types:

• Roman bureaucratic (in its legacy form, inherited and represented by the 8th-century Roman (the city) Church) + Germanic tribal/semi-feudal monarchy = Carolingan government
• Persian bureaucratic + Arabian clan = Abbasid government
• Persian bureaucratic + Turkic nomadic = Persianate Turk government (Ghazvanids, Seljuks, Delhi sultanate, etc.)
• Chinese bureaucratic + Mongol nomadic = Chinese Yuan dynasty

im also lead to believe the farmer-fisher-herder dichotomy became increasingly oriented to farming in parts of the region by Manchu times

I would like to add some of the best corps in the Qing army, the Solun tribesmen, were from the fisher-herder side of the dichotomy. They were so useful, in fact, they have basically seen all of Qing China throughout their campaigns.