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zeruosi

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A friend of mine asked me to send these reference examples.

1: This section provides some information on Chinese clothing during the game's time period, including that of semi-Sinicized states such as Liao, Jin, Western Xia, and Dali, in response to the log's call. The game's timeframe was a period of significant transformation in Chinese attire—clothing in 867, 1066, and 1178 underwent major changes. However, amid these drastic shifts, some elements remained constant. Garments essential for Confucian rituals had established regulations as early as the Han Dynasty and saw little variation even by the Ming Dynasty. The changes primarily affected changfu (everyday clothing).

For example, in the Ming Dynasty's ceremonial clothing system, types 1-4 were Confucian ritual garments that remained largely unchanged across dynasties. The following will focus on introducing the 1mianfu, 3tongtianguanfu, and 5changfu of the Tang and Song eras.
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2: First, regarding mianfu (ceremonial robes), while significant variations existed between Tang and Song dynasties in-game, we've adopted the 1112 Zhenghe era clothing regulations from the Song dynasty as our reference standard due to better historical documentation. In Crusader Kings terms, mianfu were primarily worn for coronations (upcoming expansion), funerals, pilgrimages (during sacrificial rites), and royal weddings (by the principal, not guests). It's worth noting that mianfu represented the highest ceremonial attire in Confucian ritual hierarchy, though current promotional materials suggest Paradox has prioritized tongtianguanfu over mianfu. The development history of Tang-Song/Liao-Jin-Yuan mianfu shows Tang emperors wore pure black mianfu - a tradition inherited by Liao, while Song modified them to blue, a style subsequently adopted by Jin and then Yuan. Despite these changes, Confucian ritual garments maintained remarkable consistency across eras. For production purposes, I recommend using Song-style mianfu as the base, though this explanation serves to highlight the garment's historical evolution.
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3: The imperial-grade mianfu of the Song Dynasty
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This image is quite important, so I've attached the high-resolution original. For reference purposes.View attachment 微信图片_20250530123501.jpg
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4: During the Tang and Song dynasties, all officials were entitled to wear mianfu (ceremonial robes) according to their respective ranks, as illustrated. While creating mianfu for every rank may be unnecessary, it is absolutely essential to design them for first-rank princes/kings (emperor's sons) and second-rank princes (emperor's grandsons/sons of first-rank princes), as these high-ranking imperial family members would necessarily participate in coronation ceremonies (even as non-ruling members), grand weddings, and important sacrificial rites. It's crucial to note that in the Chinese ranking system, a lower numerical rank indicates higher status - rank 1 represents the highest position (such as top ministers and imperial princes) while rank 9 denotes the lowest (minor officials), which is the inverse of typical merit-based numbering systems. All subsequent references to official ranks will follow this Chinese convention where smaller numbers correspond to higher status. The visual materials clearly demonstrate how these ceremonial robes evolved across dynasties while maintaining their core ritual significance. For practical implementation purposes, focusing on the first two princely ranks would sufficiently cover the most historically significant and frequently occurring ceremonial occasions involving mianfu within the game's context.
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5:You may observe the hierarchical logic within Confucian ceremonial attire - rank distinction is primarily determined by the quantity of ornaments and the number of liu (pendant strings on the imperial crown). The emperor wears 12 liu, first-rank princes 9 liu, and second-rank princes 7 liu.)
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6: I'm pleased to see tongtianguanfu featured as imperial attire in the dev logs, but it's important to clarify its actual protocol status. Tongtianguanfu represents relatively lower ceremonial rank and would be used for in-game situations like: receiving ministers (such as provincial governors reporting to the capital) and appointment ceremonies. While it's appropriate to depict the emperor wearing tongtianguanfu in court interface scenes, mianfu remains the mandatory attire for all major state rituals.

More crucially, conquest dynasties like the Yuan exclusively used mianfu while completely abandoning tongtianguanfu - this historical fact makes prioritized mianfu modeling even more essential.
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7: The development of changfu (everyday attire) from the 9th to 14th centuries shows its most visible evolution in the changing styles of futou (headgear), unlike the stable high-ranking Confucian ceremonial garments that remained largely consistent across eras. For historical accuracy, we should implement distinct changfu styles for the 867 (Tang) and 1066/1178 (Song) scenarios, or at minimum avoid mixing anachronistic designs - importantly, even sinicized minority dynasties like Liao, Jin, Yuan and Dali maintained changfu fashions that closely followed orthodox Chinese dynastic trends while adapting Central Plains styles to their own contexts.
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8: During the 867 Tang Dynasty scenario when central authority was in decline, the government could no longer maintain uniform clothing regulations, resulting in highly varied futou (official headgear) styles as demonstrated in these 850-870 reconstructions - importantly, regional clothing variations during this period mean both wider and slightly narrower maochi (the protruding components on either side of the futou) would be historically appropriate representations of this transitional era's sartorial diversity.
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9: During the later Five Dynasties period (10th century), the typical changfu consisting of yuanlingpao (round-collar robe) and futou maintained the late Tang tradition of floor-length robes, with both periods sharing this distinctive feature where officials' garments extended fully to the ground while the central government's declining power allowed increasing regional variations in accessories and detailing within this basic silhouette.
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10: You may have observed how the maochi of futou progressively became slimmer and longer through the ages, eventually evolving into the standardized zhanjiaofutou during the Song Dynasty - a transformation that became institutionalized through the dynasty's centralized administration; however, even this "fixed" form continued undergoing subtle stylistic changes (though less dramatic than before), making it crucial for Paradox to strictly model the 1060s-specific version while noting that Song-period yuanlingpao no longer reached floor-length like their Tang and Five Dynasties predecessors.
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11: While previous discussions focused on the temporal evolution of changfu, its hierarchical distinctions were actually simpler - determined primarily by color coding, allowing Paradox to create just one changfu model each for Tang and Song dynasties while applying rank-specific colors dynamically. Both dynasties followed this chromatic hierarchy:
officials of 1st-3rd ranks wore purple yuanlingpao (though this historical purple leaned more reddish than modern interpretations), 4th-5th ranks wore red (note that current Song-era reds in-game appear too dark - period-accurate red should match this specific hue), 6th-7th ranks green, and 8th-9th ranks blue. A crucial distinction existed between 6th and 7th rank officials regarding their ceremonial wu (court tablets) - those ranked 1st-6th carried ivory wu while lower officials used wooden ones (remembering that in this traditional ranking system, smaller numbers indicate higher status, opposite of merit-based progression). This color-coded system remained remarkably consistent despite other sartorial changes across periods.
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12. When modeling the attire of imperial bureaucrats and nobility, special attention should be paid to recreating the distinctive qualities of silk fabric - garments should exhibit subtle sheen and slight translucency while incorporating intricate, low-contrast woven patterns (known as "暗纹" or shadow patterns) that were characteristic of even ostensibly solid-colored official robes, as these textural details were essential markers of status and craftsmanship in traditional Chinese court dress despite their understated appearance from a distance.

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13. The previously shown yuanlingpao in the dev logs appeared with strangely disproportionate tailoring - it's crucial to understand that all pre-Qing Chinese attire (before Manchu styles replaced Han clothing) deliberately emphasized voluminous silhouettes, with the layered undergarments (changfu's inner layers) playing a key role in achieving this characteristic fullness; as demonstrated in the Tang-Song changfu layering sequence below, multiple under-robes were systematically worn beneath the yuanlingpao to create its proper majestic drape and movement, completely unlike the tight-fitting cuts mistakenly shown in earlier previews.

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14.While the inner garments of Tang and Song dynasties did vary, Paradox could standardize the changfu layering with this simplified combination of banbi (half-arm vest) + jiaoling changshan (cross-collar undershirt) across both periods if seeking to optimize production resources, as this core layering principle effectively achieves the characteristic voluminous silhouette while maintaining historical plausibility for general gameplay purposes.

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15. Here are the dimensional diagrams of the yuanlingpao (the outer robe part of changfu) from the Tang and Song Dynasties, provided to assist the modeling team in achieving greater accuracy. The following illustration depicts the Tang Dynasty yuanlingpao, including key measurements such as sleeve width, body length, collar span, and overall proportions based on historical garment cutting techniques.

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16. Here are the dimensional and cutting diagrams for the Song Dynasty yuanlingpao. If the modeling team prefers not to create separate versions for both Tang and Song Dynasties, using the Song-style yuanlingpao as a baseline—while subtly adjusting details to accommodate both the 867 and 1066 scenarios—would be a viable solution. For greater accuracy, this reference includes precise measurements, tailoring techniques, and stylistic features characteristic of Song-era robes, ensuring historical coherence across both timeframes.

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17. Additionally, please note the distinctive "Yezidai" (也字带) fastening method used in the Song Dynasty yuanlingpao. For comparison, we have included a reference image of the Tang Dynasty waistband—demonstrating how the belt width increased significantly by the Song period. This detail is crucial for maintaining historical accuracy in the garment's fit and silhouette across the two eras.

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18. While patterns were highly significant in clothing, official robes typically featured solid colors without elaborate decorations due to sumptuary laws. However, wealthy merchants and landowners—unrestricted by imperial bans on luxury—often wore yuanlingpao adorned with intricate motifs. During the Tang Dynasty, both officials and commoners wore structurally similar yuanlingpao and futou, with rank primarily distinguished through color rather than cut. Below are some popular Tang-era textile patterns for reference.

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19. In ancient China, Confucian norms encouraged restraint in outward displays of ornamentation, leading to a preference for subtle anwen (暗纹, "hidden patterns") on outermost garments—where designs were woven in the same color but with varying textures to create a subdued effect. Vibrant, intricate motifs were typically reserved for inner layers, revealed only in private settings or through deliberate movements. This practice reflected both aesthetic refinement and social propriety, as overtly bold patterns were considered excessive for public wear.

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20. A common misconception suggests Chinese emperors always wore yellow robes, but the imperial preference for yellow originated in the Tang Dynasty due to its association with the Earth virtue (土德) in the Five Elements system. By the Song Dynasty, this trend waned significantly—surviving portraits show Song emperors predominantly in red or white yuanlingpao, reflecting the dynasty’s cultural emphasis on red (though historical records confirm they occasionally wore yellow, a muted ochre-yellow distinct from the later Ming-Qing’s bright imperial yellow). Notably, Ming emperors standardized yellow as the supreme regal color, abandoning Five Elements symbolism (Ming’s element was Fire, linked to red).

In the Song context, while high-ranking officials (3rd–5th grade) wore red, the emperor’s occasional use of yellow subtly distinguished his status without overtly flaunting authority—a sartorial reflection of the dynasty’s ethos of ruling alongside scholar-officials. The attached references include two Song imperial portraits (red/white robes) and one late Tang emperor (yellow), illustrating this evolution.

(Design note: For accuracy, Song-era "imperial yellow" should lean toward brownish-yellow (赭黄) rather than the saturated Ming-Qing gold-yellow.)

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21. In Tang Dynasty (867 CE), the cut and style of commoners' clothing were virtually identical to those of nobles and officials—the key distinctions lay in fabric quality and color. While sumptuary laws theoretically limited commoners to wearing subdued colors like black, gray, white, and blue (with vibrant hues reserved for elites), these regulations were poorly enforced by 867 CE, allowing some flexibility in practice. When modeling, simply downgrading the textile quality (e.g., using coarse hemp or undyed linen instead of fine silks) while maintaining the same garment structure will accurately reflect social hierarchy. The accompanying references show commoners' attire from Dunhuang murals alongside modern reconstructions, demonstrating how subtle material differences—rather than design variations—marked social status.

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22. Song Dynasty clothing became significantly more complex and socially stratified compared to Tang styles, with distinct variations emerging across different classes. Below are reference images showcasing typical attire for wealthy landowners, retired officials, prosperous merchants, and scholars—each reflecting their specific status through fabric quality, color restrictions, and decorative elements. For modeling efficiency, Paradox may select the most structurally representative reconstructions that balance historical accuracy with animation practicality.

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23. Given Paradox's focus on the imperial examination system, here are references to the distinctive attire worn by Confucian students (yet to take the exams).

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24. Here are references for the clothing of Song Dynasty peasants, servants, and impoverished individuals—characterized by coarse, unbleached hemp fabrics, minimal tailoring for practicality, and a complete absence of decorative elements.

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Here are the different colored bureaucratic ranks of the round collar robes of the Tang Empire of the Nine Rank system; purple were the top ranked officials going from 1-3. Rank 4 wore dark red robes and rank 5 light red. Rank 6 wore dark green robes and rank 7 wore light green. Rank 8 officials wore dark blue and the final rank 9 wore light blue. The Yellow robe was exclusively worn by the Emperor. The round-collar robe was the everyday dress for many in the Empire.
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2. Here are examples of the Hufu clothing or “foreign” clothing that became popular during the Tang Empire. Even women wore the outfits. You can notice they resemble Iranian and Turkic clothing in the west due to constant trade and cordial relations of different Iranian groups such as the Sogdians:
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3. Here are examples of the women clothing and styles and also everyday clothing:
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You raise an excellent point regarding the advantages of the Tang Dynasty's seven-rank official color system over the Song's four-tier structure. Indeed, the Tang classification (with its distinct hues for each of the nine-rank grades—though seven were commonly emphasized in court dress) offers greater visual granularity for distinguishing official hierarchies in-game. While the Song's simplified four-grade system (purple/red/green/blue) conveniently aligns with Paradox's traditional ducal-count-baron hierarchy, the Tang system—spanning violet, deep red, light red, green, azure, and more—would better reflect nuanced power progression.

If Paradox can implement both systems contextually (Tang for 867, Song for 1066), that would be ideal. But if forced to choose one, the Tang palette's expanded spectrum would provide players with clearer at-a-glance status recognition. Your observation about matching performance grades to robe colors is particularly insightful—the Tang system could even inspire mechanics where faction leaders visually "promote" through robe upgrades. Grateful for this productive exchange!
 
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You raise an excellent point regarding the advantages of the Tang Dynasty's seven-rank official color system over the Song's four-tier structure. Indeed, the Tang classification (with its distinct hues for each of the nine-rank grades—though seven were commonly emphasized in court dress) offers greater visual granularity for distinguishing official hierarchies in-game. While the Song's simplified four-grade system (purple/red/green/blue) conveniently aligns with Paradox's traditional ducal-count-baron hierarchy, the Tang system—spanning violet, deep red, light red, green, azure, and more—would better reflect nuanced power progression.

If Paradox can implement both systems contextually (Tang for 867, Song for 1066), that would be ideal. But if forced to choose one, the Tang palette's expanded spectrum would provide players with clearer at-a-glance status recognition. Your observation about matching performance grades to robe colors is particularly insightful—the Tang system could even inspire mechanics where faction leaders visually "promote" through robe upgrades. Grateful for this productive exchange!
Hopefully Paradox can implement it well
 
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You raise an excellent point regarding the advantages of the Tang Dynasty's seven-rank official color system over the Song's four-tier structure. Indeed, the Tang classification (with its distinct hues for each of the nine-rank grades—though seven were commonly emphasized in court dress) offers greater visual granularity for distinguishing official hierarchies in-game. While the Song's simplified four-grade system (purple/red/green/blue) conveniently aligns with Paradox's traditional ducal-count-baron hierarchy, the Tang system—spanning violet, deep red, light red, green, azure, and more—would better reflect nuanced power progression.

If Paradox can implement both systems contextually (Tang for 867, Song for 1066), that would be ideal. But if forced to choose one, the Tang palette's expanded spectrum would provide players with clearer at-a-glance status recognition. Your observation about matching performance grades to robe colors is particularly insightful—the Tang system could even inspire mechanics where faction leaders visually "promote" through robe upgrades. Grateful for this productive exchange!

When you look at the CK merit system, you'll notice there's 9 ranks.

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Who knows if this can be used to represent the colour of the official clothing.
 
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When you look at the CK merit system, you'll notice there's 9 ranks.

View attachment 1310396

Who knows if this can be used to represent the colour of the official clothing.
I think this is probably just a bit of flavor honestly. I expect that you will be able to rank up in merit by not doing anything; though I would love to be wrong on that. I am hoping that "ranking up" is something you'll actually have to be granted rather than just doing it when you get the prerequisite merit. As said I expect the merit ranks here are just flavor and not reflective of actual position in the state(though I may be wrong and it is actually something that must be approved).
 
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few questions

at first period, what was purpose of these "drapes" ?
and for later periods - why these "ears" sometimes are flacid and other time line?
1. At first period, what was purpose of these "drapes" ?

In the mianfu , the decorative elements known as "drapes" are called liu. Their primary function was to regulate the wearer's posture, particularly when wearing the mainguan (mianfu’s hat), preventing excessive head movement. Originally developed during the Western Zhou Dynasty (1046–770 BC), the liu primarily served as a status symbol to distinguish between nobles of different ranks. However, after Confucius reinterpreted its significance, the liu also took on a political meaning, symbolizing the need for rulers and officials to maintain dignified and upright conduct.

2. And for later periods - why these "ears" sometimes are flacid and other time line?

The ‘jiao’ (referred to as "ears" )initially emerged merely as a fashionable trend. It was not until the Song Dynasty that its design was formally standardized .
 
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Liao dynasty clothing
Nobles of the 金朝
Thanks for posting I hope the Liao as well get shown some love too. Hopefully Paradox do them well. I seem to recall for CK2 they did give the Khitans a somewhat Chinese feel/balance with the Khitan aesthetic that was distinct from the other Mongol groups. So I hope they will do the same for CK3.
 
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When you look at the CK merit system, you'll notice there's 9 ranks.

View attachment 1310396

Who knows if this can be used to represent the colour of the official clothing.
Multiple merit ranks could share the same robe color. As mentioned in Point 11, I previously outlined the color classifications corresponding to each rank. For clarity, I’ll also include an image here illustrating the official robe colors and their associated status divisions in song dynasty.

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The correspondence between official robe colors and rank grades in the mid-Tang Dynasty.

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My previous argument was simply that the Tang Dynasty's classification system was more detailed and better suited to a merit-based ranking hierarchy.
 
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I think this is probably just a bit of flavor honestly. I expect that you will be able to rank up in merit by not doing anything; though I would love to be wrong on that. I am hoping that "ranking up" is something you'll actually have to be granted rather than just doing it when you get the prerequisite merit. As said I expect the merit ranks here are just flavor and not reflective of actual position in the state(though I may be wrong and it is actually something that must be approved).
The merit rank system was clearly modeled after the ancient Chinese bureaucratic hierarchy, where an official's status was determined by their graded rank (pinji) rather than their actual administrative position. This distinction mattered because officials could find themselves temporarily out of office - whether due to the mandatory three-year mourning period (shouxiao) after a parent's death, or simply because no suitable positions were available. Yet even while inactive, they retained their formal rank and continued to wear the corresponding ceremonial attire.

The Song Dynasty faced a serious problem of bureaucratic bloat (rongguan), where the number of qualified officials far exceeded available positions. For example, there might be 100 officials holding Rank 2 status competing for just 50 actual Rank 2 positions. This created a competitive system where promotion to higher office wasn't automatic upon reaching a certain rank. However, even while waiting for appointments, these officials maintained all the ceremonial privileges of their formal rank - they would still wear their rank-appropriate robes at court functions and gatherings, despite holding no actual office.

For high-ranking officials, being appointed to a lower-grade position represented a severe humiliation and demotion - the equivalent in game terms of being dropped from Merit Rank 2 down to Merit Rank 7. Rather than accept such demeaning appointments, officials would typically choose to remain inactive while waiting for a position befitting their status.

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Multiple merit ranks could share the same robe color. As mentioned in Point 11, I previously outlined the color classifications corresponding to each rank. For clarity, I’ll also include an image here illustrating the official robe colors and their associated status divisions in song dynasty.

View attachment 1310590

The correspondence between official robe colors and rank grades in the mid-Tang Dynasty.

View attachment 1310594


My previous argument was simply that the Tang Dynasty's classification system was more detailed and better suited to a merit-based ranking hierarchy.

The differentiation of official robes was ingeniously simple - using a single base model while only altering colors perfectly adapted to China's ancient rank-color system. This approach not only authentically replicated historical sumptuary regulations but also allowed players to instantly recognize an official's rank at a glance.
 
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Multiple merit ranks could share the same robe color. As mentioned in Point 11, I previously outlined the color classifications corresponding to each rank. For clarity, I’ll also include an image here illustrating the official robe colors and their associated status divisions in song dynasty.

View attachment 1310590

The correspondence between official robe colors and rank grades in the mid-Tang Dynasty.

View attachment 1310594


My previous argument was simply that the Tang Dynasty's classification system was more detailed and better suited to a merit-based ranking hierarchy.
Didn’t the Song top ranked officials 1-3 wore purple?
As an example here are my attachments from the show Serenade of Peaceful Joy which takes place during the reign of Emperor Zhao Zhen.
 

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Didn’t the Song top ranked officials 1-3 wore purple?
As an example here are my attachments from the show Serenade of Peaceful Joy which takes place during the reign of Emperor Zhao Zhen.
In the Song Dynasty, the color purple exhibited a distinctly reddish hue—a chromatic trend that had been evolving since the late Tang period.

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