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How are straits handled?

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Belissarius

Belissarius

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How are straights handled?

Specificly how are the straights that link the med. to the sea of marmara and the sea of marmara to black sea, handeled? Thes straights are extemely easy to close to shipping. Can you do so in Ck? This has always been a problem with the paradox line of games. They treat these strights as free and open water ways when they are nothing of the sort. It is even easier to close the straights off before Iron ships and gun powder. But with wooden ships all you need is a chain to close the straights and thats exactly what was used. This gives Byzantium and later the ottomans the ability to seperate the black sea from the med. This was one of the major reasons why Russia has tried to get a mediterranean port through out its history. This need for the port is not reflected in the games that paradox has prevously released because any ship can travel between the two bodies of water. Even when at war with the turks. Its a pretty important strech of water and its importance has been completely ignored for so long.

Has this changed?
 
Maybe if not we can get it in a patch, I remmeber in HOI if you had Gibraltor no enemies could go through. Course, thats a different strait..but still..
 
There are still other (historical) ways to cross that strait like tru the dardanells (land tru land), so i think the EU latest beta way is the best.
 
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I hope this circumstance of travel between the Black and Mediterranean Seas is in the game. If a similar situation was simulated in HOI ( I don't own this game, so I don't know about it) there should be no reason why it couldn't be simulated in CK.

This would greatly increase the strategic value of the provinces around the straits, but I am curious as to the the Byzantines took advantage of this location. Did they charge tolls? I wonder which or how many of these provinces someone would need to own to gain the benefits?

Come to think of it, EU2 simulated a similar situation that the Danes encounter. It is an event, I think it was called something like ' the Sund'. So when a new country or dynasty gaines control of the straits , maybe a event could be triggered that would allow that power to choose whether or not to block sea travel into the Black Sea. Could be a very lucrative deal. You could allow free passage to certain countries in exchange for something. Probably a little too complicated for such a large, and complicated game.
 
VenetianPriest said:
I hope this circumstance of travel between the Black and Mediterranean Seas is in the game. If a similar situation was simulated in HOI ( I don't own this game, so I don't know about it) there should be no reason why it couldn't be simulated in CK.

This would greatly increase the strategic value of the provinces around the straits, but I am curious as to the the Byzantines took advantage of this location. Did they charge tolls? I wonder which or how many of these provinces someone would need to own to gain the benefits?

Come to think of it, EU2 simulated a similar situation that the Danes encounter. It is an event, I think it was called something like ' the Sund'. So when a new country or dynasty gaines control of the straits , maybe a event could be triggered that would allow that power to choose whether or not to block sea travel into the Black Sea. Could be a very lucrative deal. You could allow free passage to certain countries in exchange for something. Probably a little too complicated for such a large, and complicated game.
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The very terrian of the northern striaght is such that no force would dream of sailing through with a load of troops without negotiating transit first. its far to easy to lose your entire fleet to teh greeks there through the use of greek fire and chains that trap and destroy the fleet. You can be attacked from shore by archers and artillery (non-gunpowered). Its a very very very easy defendable water way. You have to take deliberate steps to attack the greeks to bypass the straight via an overland route.

Its not complicated at all really, You just have to create and add the variable of pass and give the default of no pass and place that varible in the diplomatic tag of the nation. Just like the other diplomatic tags in EU, example is teh guarentee independance or warn tags. This means that each nation will have to be granted access or be willing to attack to get across the straights. Its a major undertaking to get a force through the striaghts if they straights are "closed".

Also I may not want to allow muslim ships access to the black sea to attack hungry and i'm not at war with either so blocking the straights to enemies only isnt viable either as a solution.

In a later time period the turks signed a treaty that allowed free transit of comercial shipping but blocked all military ships. This treaty us still in effect today, its designed to mauntain teh balance of power (ie keep teh russian black sea fleet out of the med.) this has been one of the major reasons for the Russian push to teh med port. making the straights a free for all really doesnt do the straights justice. Its far easier to "run" the strights of gibralter than it is to "run" the turkish strights. In WW1 the allies tried to push up teh southern strights and lost two or three dreadnoghts (this is a seperate engagement were a german u-boat sank a dreadnoght and forced the RN to stop providing naval support for the gallipoli front.)

There are rare exceptions of how navies and armies delt with the greek/turkish closed water way but the game's of the past have had these waterways open to the whole world. I dont think people realise just how narrow these strights are. They are extremly narrow.
 
Belissarius said:
The very terrian of the northern striaght is such that no force would dream of sailing through with a load of troops without negotiating transit first. its far to easy to lose your entire fleet to teh greeks there through the use of greek fire and chains that trap and destroy the fleet. You can be attacked from shore by archers and artillery (non-gunpowered). Its a very very very easy defendable water way. You have to take deliberate steps to attack the greeks to bypass the straight via an overland route.

Its not complicated at all really, You just have to create and add the variable of pass and give the default of no pass and place that varible in the diplomatic tag of the nation. Just like the other diplomatic tags in EU, example is teh guarentee independance or warn tags. This means that each nation will have to be granted access or be willing to attack to get across the straights. Its a major undertaking to get a force through the striaghts if they straights are "closed".

Also I may not want to allow muslim ships access to the black sea to attack hungry and i'm not at war with either so blocking the straights to enemies only isnt viable either as a solution.

In a later time period the turks signed a treaty that allowed free transit of comercial shipping but blocked all military ships. This treaty us still in effect today, its designed to mauntain teh balance of power (ie keep teh russian black sea fleet out of the med.) this has been one of the major reasons for the Russian push to teh med port. making the straights a free for all really doesnt do the straights justice. Its far easier to "run" the strights of gibralter than it is to "run" the turkish strights. In WW1 the allies tried to push up teh southern strights and lost two or three dreadnoghts (this is a seperate engagement were a german u-boat sank a dreadnoght and forced the RN to stop providing naval support for the gallipoli front.)

There are rare exceptions of how navies and armies delt with the greek/turkish closed water way but the game's of the past have had these waterways open to the whole world. I dont think people realise just how narrow these strights are. They are extremly narrow.
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That was quite informative, Belissarius. Didn't quite understand the technical explanation of how to add it on your own, but hopefully we won't have to. The AAR was a beta and this issue may have been addressed since then.

We can only hope.
 
Another thing about this straights issue is that: it was Byzanz/East Rome who called for help against the muslims and got the first crusade (which went a little other direction than they wanted it). It is extreemly strange that they would allow muslim ships into the black sea, to let them conquer a Crusader kingdom! I don´t say that you have to be at war with another state to close the straights, but it should be handled like economic treaties. With good relations you should be allowed to pass it, if not, you shouldn`t have the possibility to do so.
So I would like to see something like a treaty that allows or bans going through such a straight, but guess I´m just dreaming. :D
 
Just a comment about the history of straits and their "closure": It was in the 1430s or 40s (can't remember) when Hungary started a huge campaign against the Ottomans, with Venice and the Pope as "allies". The Venetians -as previously agreed- sent a fleet to close the Straits, so the Ottomans could not send reinfocement, and this way, they could be driven off Europe. Well, everything went fine until the Venetian fleet started to transfer the Ottoman troops through the Straits for good money.
 
I agree that using straits should be harder than in HoI, but not impossible. Building fortress or keeping garrisoned troops should make passing straits hard and very costly. Even bonus to defending ships make sense, because it's harder to manouver in narrow and shallow waters. It would be nice feature to choose which countries have right to pass through or taxing those who pass. :)

Let's see how many straits we have in Europe.

Gibraltar

The most important strait? 14 km wide. No cannon have range to make passing impossible, so you are going to need ships to block passing.

Bosphorus

It is a difficult body of water to navigate due to its treacherous currents and great twists and turns. In its most narrow part it is only 650 meters across; its furtherest separation it is 4.5 km. It is 35 km. long. The Bosphorus connects the Marmara Sea at the south to the black sea Black Sea in the north. Building a fort with cannons make passing strait almost impossible.

Danmark-Sweden strait

I don't know what this strait is called in English. Few kilometers wide, actually there is three straits. I think this strait also need ships to to block passing?

English channel

Narrowest point 34 km. Again ships are needed to block this.

Is there any else? It seems to me that to block strait you need ships, except in Bosphorus. Building fort should give bonus to blocking units. But I think there was one post that told there is no fleets in CK? If this is right, propably we are not able to block any strait.

El Savior
 
Could the solution of the problem be that countries could actually OWN the seazones in question and that military access would thus be required to pass through them with ships?
 
El Savior said:
Bosphorus

It is a difficult body of water to navigate due to its treacherous currents and great twists and turns. In its most narrow part it is only 650 meters across; its furtherest separation it is 4.5 km. It is 35 km. long. The Bosphorus connects the Marmara Sea at the south to the black sea Black Sea in the north. Building a fort with cannons make passing strait almost impossible.



El Savior
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nope.. but a nice long iron chain will most certainly stop most ships
 
El Savior said:
Danmark-Sweden strait

I don't know what this strait is called in English. Few kilometers wide, actually there is three straits. I think this strait also need ships to to block passing?
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The Sound (Sealand/Skåne) was the only safe passage but could easily be blocked from land at Helsingør/Helsingborg - with the right artillery, so not in this time period :p.
The other (Storebælt) could be used with some risk, and this could only be blocked be ships.
The third you mention (Lillebælt), are not for seagoing vessels, too shallow and also very narrow.
 
Martinus said:
You have to remember, guys, that during middle ages there were hardly any naval battles, because most countries did not have resources and technology to construct and maintain a military navy.
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Untrue. England, France, Castille, Byzantium, Sicily, Venice (and other italian states, such as Genoa and Pisa), the Ottomans and the Fatimids [edit:and no doubt others whose history I'm unfamiliar with or have forgotten] all fought significant naval battles. A military navy was vital if you were to be any kind of mediterranean power, and indeed it was the neglect of the navy by the Angeli which was the primary cause of the sack of Constantinople in 1204 and thus the fall of the Empire.

Actually, I would say there were a lot more important naval battles in the CK period than in the Victoria period.
 
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El Savior said:
Let's see how many straits we have in Europe.

Gibraltar

Bosphorus

Danmark-Sweden strait

English channel

Is there any else?
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  • The Strait of Messina between Sicily and Italy, can be avoided.
  • The Strait of Hormus between Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman (not exactly in Europe, but I think that it is on the CK map).
  • The strait between the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.
  • The Bonifacio Strait between Sardinia and Corsica, can be avoided.
  • North Channel between Ireland and UK. (The northern entry into Irish Sea.)
 
Flame of Udûn said:
if there is an enemy fleet in the sea zone between the two provinces it isn't possible to cross
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Ahh thanks.

Well thats a realy poor way to deal with these two straights as they are so narrow you dont need a fleet to block transit you just need a chain which was used historicaly.
 
The main effect of the Bosphorus was the economic effect on the traiding "coutries". The Venitians were denied access to the Black sea by the Byzantines (After the reconquest of Constantinople?), which allowed the Genoans to base their profit on trade through this sea. This Genoan monopoly was a significant factor in preserving some wealth in Genoa during the Venitian/Genoan competition of the period (Despite the Venitian ascendency throughtout the Med).
 
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