How Do You Think All Under Heaven Should Handle Europeans in Asia?

[ENFP]

I think we can all agree that it should be very difficult for, say, a French adventurer to carve out a kingdom in China or Japan once the DLC releases. The same should go for if a Japanese wanderer tries to hold onto land in England. What would your ideal balance for this look like? Do you think the Cultural Acceptance system will be made more harsh once even more distant cultures get added to the game?

 

[strattonthebard]

I Imagine there will be some scripting to keep AI adventurers other than dedicated Explorers from wandering too far outside their starting zone so this will only really happen if it's a player doing it

 

[Eltar1]

The same way it currently handles, say, Haesteinn going to India to carve out an empire with Huskarls and War Elephants, meaning, if you want to do it, then why not. Maybe some more travel events about you being perceived as a foreigner. And also having Languages actually be useful. If your Norse Adventurer goes to China, then he should learn Chinese to be able to speak to anyone there.

 

[vyshan]

I don't mind there being landless characters showing up there. or if the player wants to, the player can find a way. I do hope that there is some good checks for the AI to make the ai from carving out realms.

 

[Kainser]

I don't really see why it should be harder for an European to hold land in China than in the currently available Burma or Tibet (and vice versa for someone Chinese to hold land in Europe). In the end it is a sandbox and diplo range should cover the worst excesses from the AI.

 

[CrazyRat]

I mean, we already have event adventurers get about converting to the local culture, so I presume any adventurer band from Normandia will get culture converted (or just inherited by a local follower) long time prior making it to China.

besides, why not? if there are Europeans in the East Asia – and there is not a reason they would not be totally absent – and they would find the work as the military commanders for hire, then there is no reason they would not be able to pull “raja from Tipperary” style stunt any more than a more local Adventurers of nomadic cultures, or so.

It should probably be much harder to religion and culture converts Asian lands, because (without some sorts of decision / events to foster missionaries, or whatever) there wouldn’t really be people available, and so most probably the dynasty would just convert to local practices after some time. and the 'grant to [your culture]' interaction could also be disabled, because - come on - there are not 50 able French administrators ready to poof into existence at your court in Chang'an.

 

[47pik]

It’s a reasonable alternative history scenario, and should be possible but I think it needs to be more challenging to do. We’ve really got to make use of the whole language mechanic better.

 

[Cyhort]

and the 'grant to [your culture]' interaction could also be disabled, because - come on - there are not 50 able French administrators ready to poof into existence at your court in Chang'an.

At the very least, unless you have a large domain that's populated mostly by the culture in question, if you're too far away from a cultures homeland the characters spawned by that decision should have increasingly worse stats and traits to simulate the difficulty of attracting skilled foreign nobles to your distant lands. Ideally the stats/traits would scale back and forth depending on how widespread your culture is in a region or domain, but realistically I'd take a flat debuff the further away you are to encourage the player and the AI to spawn characters from a local culture. It makes much more sense historically, especially in China where foreign conquerors eventually Sinicized, for the most part.

 

[CrazyRat]

Ideally the stats/traits would scale back and forth depending on how widespread your culture is in a region or domain, but realistically I'd take a flat debuff the further away you are to encourage the player and the AI to spawn characters from a local culture.

Well, if we are talking about ideal world, then I would love if it built upon the major trade paths (like e.g. Silk Roads), and – at the significant investment, and with the approval of the major rulers around the path – allow you to send envoys to your cultural homeland, or your Head of Faith to establish some connections.

You know: sending a delegation to the Papacy to ask for a troop of missionaries send to distant China, or trying to coal the Counts to send their ambitious younger sons to far off lands, so that you have at least some able characters of your culture.

I would think of it as a major undertaking. That, and coslty ones, because people aren't that keen on Nigerian princes asking them to send their son, because they have a Duchy laying around... unless of course you could persuade them of the veracity of your claims by the means of apprioprate showcase of wealth. Moreover, such endeavor should probably worsen your relations with most of your realm.

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

Probably the same way it already does treat Europeans in Asia.

 

[Desseabar]

It’s a reasonable alternative history scenario, and should be possible but I think it needs to be more challenging to do. We’ve really got to make use of the whole language mechanic better.

Yeah, I think language is probably the answer here. That would also make wandering a bit slower in some areas.

Maybe the check for the game should only allow you to take contracts if you have a camp follower who speaks the local/court language, and you can only pick up camp followers who speak a language that's shared with another camp follower. Maybe there could be some exceptions for liturgical languages, so Latin/Greek/Arabic are usable throughout the world.

If you want to go from Norway to China, you're going to need a string of translators to make it possible – slowing down progress a bit, but not unreasonably so.

 

[CrazyRat]

Maybe the check for the game should only allow you to take contracts if you have a camp follower who speaks the local/court language, and you can only pick up camp followers who speak a language that's shared with another camp follower. Maybe there could be some exceptions for liturgical languages, so Latin/Greek/Arabic are usable throughout the world.

I mean, people who live for the extended period abroad generally do pick up enough vocabulary to communicate even if they don't become fluent in the language. There is a big difference between the rudimentary skills ('bandits. in the forest. kill'; 'protect village') and in depth relaying of the Aristotle philosophy to the Chinese emperor.

Moreover, more focus on languages with CK3 system would look massively stupid at some parts of the map: especially the part that have some forms of diglossic situation like in Indian subcontinent where the Muslim might not all know local languages, but 99% could have rudimentary conversation on the streeets.

 

[henriqueb1]

I for one think there should be some modeled xenophobia in the game. That's just how it was at the time. If a chinese adventurer conquered lands in western europe somehow, they would be targeted and isolated. If he was rich it would help, but he would still have to work much harder and for the rest of his life to convince people he had become one of their own, and the adopting culture mechanics does not cut it, as his ethnicity would still be very alien to both his subjects and his peers. Being fluent in the language should be just one of the very necessary steps.

I can't speak for how medieval chinese people would react to an european adventurer conquering land in China, as I don't know enough about their world view. But he certainly would also be seen as a barbarian, and would have to work for the rest of his life to convince the people of his commitment to becoming one of their own.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Either we get a unique system for china, an overral rework to make the game more historical with how widespread adventurers get, or we get no changes. My money is currently on the latter

 

[DiabloDeVille]

I mean, people who live for the extended period abroad generally do pick up enough vocabulary to communicate even if they don't become fluent in the language. There is a big difference between the rudimentary skills ('bandits. in the forest. kill'; 'protect village') and in depth relaying of the Aristotle philosophy to the Chinese emperor.

Moreover, more focus on languages with CK3 system would look massively stupid at some parts of the map: especially the part that have some forms of diglossic situation like in Indian subcontinent where the Muslim might not all know local languages, but 99% could have rudimentary conversation on the streeets.

They could just do the mod thing and have languages be easier to learn if you know the related ones

 

[naq29]

 

[Desseabar]

I mean, people who live for the extended period abroad generally do pick up enough vocabulary to communicate even if they don't become fluent in the language. There is a big difference between the rudimentary skills ('bandits. in the forest. kill'; 'protect village') and in depth relaying of the Aristotle philosophy to the Chinese emperor.

Moreover, more focus on languages with CK3 system would look massively stupid at some parts of the map: especially the part that have some forms of diglossic situation like in Indian subcontinent where the Muslim might not all know local languages, but 99% could have rudimentary conversation on the streets.

Yeah, but I think the 'soft cap' is basically having sufficient linguistic skills to communicate with an official in the local government or in the markets. Would an official really give the tax collection contract to some foreign barbarian who can't count to 100 in the local language? You still have the 'learn language' interaction to reflect that local practice you're mentioning.

 

[zeruosi]

I can't speak for how medieval chinese people would react to an european adventurer conquering land in China, as I don't know enough about their world view. But he certainly would also be seen as a barbarian, and would have to work for the rest of his life to convince the people of his commitment to becoming one of their own.

you are right

 

[darthfanta]

I for one think there should be some modeled xenophobia in the game. That's just how it was at the time. If a chinese adventurer conquered lands in western europe somehow, they would be targeted and isolated. If he was rich it would help, but he would still have to work much harder and for the rest of his life to convince people he had become one of their own, and the adopting culture mechanics does not cut it, as his ethnicity would still be very alien to both his subjects and his peers. Being fluent in the language should be just one of the very necessary steps.

I can't speak for how medieval chinese people would react to an european adventurer conquering land in China, as I don't know enough about their world view. But he certainly would also be seen as a barbarian, and would have to work for the rest of his life to convince the people of his commitment to becoming one of their own.

We already have cultural acceptance as a thing. I don't think we need to model more xenophobia.

 

[strattonthebard]

And we already have cultural traditions for some that decrease cultural acceptance gain even