How does PI deal with "name changes" in the Sengoku period?

[ipridian]

Hi, I'm a new sucker hooked into PI by EU3...

As you may know, the Sengoku Jidai is plagued with ... name changes. This concept might be hard to grasp the first time you learn about it.

To explain what it is to people who don't know, here's a famous person from the period: Tokugawa Ieyasu (Tokugawa is his family name).

Except, that wasn't his birth name. He was born into the Matsudaira clan, so his name was Matsudaira Takechiyo. That name is fairly obscure since tradition makes him change his name when he comes of age, so his first appellation known to the outside world would be Matsudaira (Jirōsaburō) Motonobu, when he came of age. Actually this is not quite true, since only 1 year later, he changed his name again when marrying, to the probably more-widely known Matsudaira (Kurandonosuke) Motoyasu.
Around about 65-67 (sources dispute about the date), he suddenly decides to change his name again! He now takes the family name Tokugawa and calls himself Ieyasu. Tokugawa Ieyasu was born. He now claims descent from the (famous) Minamoto clan instead of (lesser known) Matsudaira...

Does PI intend to deal with this, for historical accuracy, or leave it out altogether?

The difficulties of the name change in a game are, I believe, the following:

• It confuses players. So the lord of the province nearby is Matsudaira Ieyasu. Suddenly 2 years later, you attack to find out it's now Tokugawa Ieyasu. Is that his son, you wonder? Then you realise, no, it's not, the family name is the first one... For people unfamiliar with name changing, it would be a bit confusing.
• How do you keep track of it? (Pop up event?)
• How do you do it when it's a name change of your own lord?

Would be interested in knowing your opinions on this! cheers.

PS: Looking at the latest screenshot, it seems the direction is "First name of Family/clan name" as shown by the Katsumoto of Hosokawa

 

[Sakura]

I'm guessing that they won't include it. That's probably for the best as it would be difficult to do it well and it can be confusing to players (as you noted).

To give a little more general explanation of your Tokugawa Ieyasu example (which is more complicated than most):

Matsudaira Takechiyo: All male children were given a name upon birth (usually ending with -maru, -chiyo, or -boshi) that was not intended to be their permanent name.

Matsudaira Motonobu: Upon reaching adulthood (which would usually happen between the age of 11 and 17) they were receive their real name. This name would be made up of two kanji. One would either be a kanji traditionally passed down in the clan or a kanji used in a relative's name. The other kanji would be granted by a superior or powerful figure and used as a sign of respect or fealty. I'm not sure where the "nobu" in Motonobu came from, but the "moto" came from Imagawa Yoshimoto. Ieyasu grew up as a hostage in Yoshimoto's household.

Matsudaira Motoyasu: Motonobu was granted the right to use kanji from the name of his grandfather, Kiyoyasu, so took the "yasu" from his name.

Matsudaira Ieyasu: After the death of Imagawa Yoshimoto at the Battle of Okehazama and a rapid decline in Imagawa fortunes, the Matsudaira became independent. Motoyasu changed the "moto" to "ie" to show that he longer paid fealty to the Imagawa.

Tokugawa Ieyasu: After managing to secure control over all of Mikawa province, Ieyasu petitioned the imperial court for titles and the name change to connect his clan with a more illustrious history. Although it was not unusual for samurai to change their name after receiving an honor from the Emperor, changing the clan name as Ieyasu did was virtually unprecedented.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

No idea, but I hope they omit it to be honest. This could make the game quite confusing to non-Japanese eyes.

 

[Sakura]

I think they could include it on a small scale... something similar to the coming of age events in CK. Give male children a random childhood name and then let the player choose their new name when they become an adult. The new name could give a bonus for relations with the person it honors.

I don't remember paying much attention to underage characters in CK unless I was looking for potential wives, so I don't think this would cause much confusion. This wouldn't affect female characters.

 

[Captain Gars]

PS: Looking at the latest screenshot, it seems the direction is "First name of Family/clan name" as shown by the Katsumoto of Hosokawa

What's in the alpha screenshot is not necessarily something which will be in the final game. In this case "First name of Family/clan name" is a remnant from CKII and will be changed.

 

[Negru Voda]

Is the example in OP an example of something widespread, or is it an extreme example of someone who happened to change his name many times.

Cause if these nobles change their names once or twice, it could be done (maybe as an option in the main menu).

If the game has good in-game interface options like: Tracking specific ppl, then you can track them and be informed of when they change their names. So it would be a bit confusing at first, but I think after the first or second game session, most players would get used to it

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Few landed nobles changed their clan name in this period, but many changed their family name upon recieving land, either granted by their lord or through inheritance(Daimyos did have a lot of marriages among themselves like European nobles, but one can't just inherit the land but must inherit the family and it's possesions, so Daimyos can't inherit another Daimyo family but can grant it to his brother or son)

 

[semaphore]

Is the example in OP an example of something widespread, or is it an extreme example of someone who happened to change his name many times.

It was very much the norm to change names.

Take Uesugi Kensin for another example, his name went like this: Nagao Torachiyo -> Nagao Kagetora -> Uesugi Masatora -> Uesugi Terutora.

Normally everyone would change their names when they come of age, where they adopt a formal adult name. Often they'd go on to receive a word from the name of someone higher in social/political status, resulting in another change. Some of them would inherit a different family, which sometimes meant they'll change their 'given' names to include the common word of that family. Then sometimes they'd get all religious and take a dharma name, e.g. Kenshin.

 

[Wilsonrtf]

It was very much the norm to change names.

Take Uesugi Kensin for another example, his name went like this: Nagao Torachiyo -> Nagao Kagetora -> Uesugi Masatora -> Uesugi Terutora.

Normally everyone would change their names when they come of age, where they adopt a formal adult name. Often they'd go on to receive a word from the name of someone higher in social/political status, resulting in another change. Some of them would inherit a different family, which sometimes meant they'll change their 'given' names to include the common word of that family. Then sometimes they'd get all religious and take a dharma name, e.g. Kenshin.

So, in game terms, maybe a character should have a child name, change it upon reaching and change it upon becoming a daymio? That would be interesting. The older names could be kept written in the character sheet, so it would be easy to keep track of who is who.

It would also be interesting if the name change was somehow linked to previous life events and general education of the character (if CK conception of education is kept).

 

[ipridian]

Thanks Sakura, rmdsc for further explaining the problem & good to know that the Alpha Screenshot is not definitive, CptGars.

From the replies, it seems there are fears that it would be too confusing. I totally understand that and guess it might deter a large part of the audience from playing it...

If there could be a compromise option that would be great though, since from my opening post and rmdsc, you can see that the examples we give are from the famous characters. As it seems Sengoku takes a lot of character focus from CK, one would imagine that it would be at least mentioned in an event during character development.

Uesugi Kenshin, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Hōjō Sōun are three famous examples of people who changed their family name after an important deed. Would be nice if there is a special mention!

Though all of this is very much speculation Might not even be a need for dealing with this if there's no historical mode for leaders!

 

[anomanderus]

No idea, but I hope they omit it to be honest. This could make the game quite confusing to non-Japanese eyes.

It's probably confusing to modern Japanese eyes too...

 

[DarthJF]

It adds nothing to the gameplay and only confuses people, so I don't think they're going to have it in game, and I certainly hope that's the case.

 

[Sjiveru]

It adds nothing to the gameplay

I would argue it adds flavour to the gameplay.

I like it! I hope it's in.

 

[DarthJF]

I would argue it adds flavour to the gameplay.

Flavor for the small part of players who know about it, and endless confusion to the rest. Benefit/difficulty of implementing doesn't match up. The only case I find name changing to be useful would be in adopting people to your family.

 

[icedt729]

So long as it's easy to see all of a character's past names, I think this could actually add a lot of depth to individual characters, since name changes tended to occur with changes in political, religious or social stature. It'd be a little counterintuitive (at a glance you might mistake a character's new name for being an entirely new character) but it would make names a little more reflective of the character's journey.

 

[Enravota]

It adds nothing to the gameplay and only confuses people, so I don't think they're going to have it in game, and I certainly hope that's the case.

It shows allegiance (from the vassal) and favour (from the lord). One of the kanjis were from the lord of the given person or the shogun. It should influence relations at the very least.

BTW another famous daymio who changed names was Takeda Shingen. Shingen was a dharma name while his grown up name was Harunobu (the haru is from Ashikaga Yoshiharu).

Edit: Uesugi Kenshin is also a good example of changing names to improve relations. He changed names from Uesugi Masatora to Uesugi Terutora as in Ashikaga Yoshiteru.