After having played a couple single player GCs I have decided to try MP. Could I practice for it in some way? Any tips for things that won't go like you were used to when playing alone vs ai?
thanks
thanks
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The Fact is that there is no training possibilitie.
Humans are so damn different from AI´s that you just cant predict them (you can in parts if you are trained in such things like studyieng psychology and so on).
But the Truth is that playing MP is much more fun.
And Humans often are much better and more aggressive than the AI....
Humans are so damn different from AI´s that you just cant predict them (you can in parts if you are trained in such things like studyieng psychology and so on).
But the Truth is that playing MP is much more fun.
And Humans often are much better and more aggressive than the AI....
The main differences in MP are that the resources commonly available in SP aren't in MP. Iron, sulphur, small arms, furniture aren't around, so make your own. The other thing is that humans are better at fighting wars. Don't expect to roll in and fight disorganized stacks of 5-6 divisions, and you usually won't be fighting 1 on 1 as humans will form alliances.
The best way to practice for MP is to play economic games. Money is everything; a strong economy to support a larger-than-normal army is a must. If you're Prussia/Germany, be able to field 100 divisions by 1860 and still show a surplus; Russia should be able to support 150 or more by 1860. Learn to make money with what you have and you'll do ok.
The best way to practice for MP is to play economic games. Money is everything; a strong economy to support a larger-than-normal army is a must. If you're Prussia/Germany, be able to field 100 divisions by 1860 and still show a surplus; Russia should be able to support 150 or more by 1860. Learn to make money with what you have and you'll do ok.
Which other resources aren't available? I mean, I assume it's more than just those four. And if you are playing a country with a small national population, like Britain, how can you ever produce all the things you need?Lamprey said:
well ive found as UK that i cant get iron too easy. On the other hand at the early stage of the game i can buy steel cos people sell it for profit.
You produce as much steel as you can given your iron resources; UK, for one, produces a good amount of iron in its RGOs, so it should be able to make enough steel to cover its needs (MPs, steamers, small arms/artillery). You play your cards differently depending on which country you are, base your industry on what you produce.
Lamprey said:
But in Memnon's Guide to Victory in Multiplayer games it says,
Memnon said:
That seems to imply that a player would be expected to produce more steel than his or her domestic iron RGOs could support---even if it was impossible to import iron on the world market. So I am confused.
His guide is wrong on MP, ignore that part of it. The entire thing... I think he spends a good part of it advocating stabbing your allies in the back too. Also wrong, that kind of behavior is liable to land you with no allies at all halfway through the game, not to mentioned piled on 
The SP part of the manual, though, is excellent, so feel free to follow that
The way this ends up being, least in my experience, is that everyone has enough factories to use up their entire iron stockpile, give or take. Steel factories won't lose money, least not any more than they do in SP (start off losing a little, end up making a ton). People tend to hate seeing their income dip every few days when they run out of iron and production stops so many people usually even sell some iron - some being 0.05/day or so, not much. Soon as they see their iron supply grow (railroads, expanded RGOs filling up etc) they expend their steel mills to take advantage because in Vicky, you NEED steel.
Germany tends to be a special case in MP because after doing the unification right and keeping up on culture research, it hits 3,000 prestige early and stays first, so they can buy the world supply. Everyone else follows the rules above.
It's really not as bad as it sounds; you simply can't base your economy on steel as most do in MP. Even Germany can't because the other player nations are selling very little, if any, iron, so they can usually buy around 10/day - tops. People base their industry on other stuff - luxury goods, lumber, clothing etc. It's a good thing, it forces you to broaden your economic game by making it tougher.
The SP part of the manual, though, is excellent, so feel free to follow that
The way this ends up being, least in my experience, is that everyone has enough factories to use up their entire iron stockpile, give or take. Steel factories won't lose money, least not any more than they do in SP (start off losing a little, end up making a ton). People tend to hate seeing their income dip every few days when they run out of iron and production stops so many people usually even sell some iron - some being 0.05/day or so, not much. Soon as they see their iron supply grow (railroads, expanded RGOs filling up etc) they expend their steel mills to take advantage because in Vicky, you NEED steel.
Germany tends to be a special case in MP because after doing the unification right and keeping up on culture research, it hits 3,000 prestige early and stays first, so they can buy the world supply. Everyone else follows the rules above.
It's really not as bad as it sounds; you simply can't base your economy on steel as most do in MP. Even Germany can't because the other player nations are selling very little, if any, iron, so they can usually buy around 10/day - tops. People base their industry on other stuff - luxury goods, lumber, clothing etc. It's a good thing, it forces you to broaden your economic game by making it tougher.
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So, basically what happened to him in Europe Ablaze?Lamprey said:His guide is wrong on MP, ignore that part of it. The entire thing... I think he spends a good part of it advocating stabbing your allies in the back too. Also wrong, that kind of behavior is liable to land you with no allies at all halfway through the game, not to mentioned piled on
Oh, okay. Thank you.Lamprey said:
I still think that if Mem were still playing EA, he'd still win!
I personally dont think that what he did was all that wrong, as he chose national interest over other nations' interest. that is not so bad a thing is it? he is after all a student of politics
I personally dont think that what he did was all that wrong, as he chose national interest over other nations' interest. that is not so bad a thing is it? he is after all a student of politics
One thing to understand about a good MP game is that the most important weapon one can wield is diplomacy. Get more than you give and be patient. Sometimes giving what seems alot early on can reap hugh rewards later. Also stabbing others in the back is not necessarily a bad thing just be sure to cover your tracks so it looks better than it is or have a damn good reason. Or better yet new allies that you can keep. A careful player can call the shots in a game that they have little military power in.
I agree, politics are a huge part of MP, maybe the biggest. A good diplomat will make a difference between a war that's won and one that's lost. Example: Russia fights the crimean war vs. the OE. If Russia takes the time to talk to everyone and manages to assure their neutrality, it wins; otherwise, it gets piled on and loses.
Memnon's approach might've been ok in principle, I won't argue because I don't know for certain. But I always felt that in a MP game, once you get a reputation as dishonest - unless, of course, you have a VERY good reason - people will remember it. That makes them less willing to even talk with you because they automatically assume whatever you say, you're lying and planning something against them.
I personally don't try to be the good guy in MP games; I look out for my self-interest and gang up on weaker nations with the best of them. But, I do try extremely hard to honor the spirit (not just the letter) of my treaties and to be honest. If I'm allied to someone, I won't attack; if I want to attack, I'll look for a reason to and I won't sign any treaties. I believe this makes me somewhat predictable but it also won't leave me without an ally. Well, unless I'm Russia, Russia always has that problem to worry about.
Memnon's approach might've been ok in principle, I won't argue because I don't know for certain. But I always felt that in a MP game, once you get a reputation as dishonest - unless, of course, you have a VERY good reason - people will remember it. That makes them less willing to even talk with you because they automatically assume whatever you say, you're lying and planning something against them.
I personally don't try to be the good guy in MP games; I look out for my self-interest and gang up on weaker nations with the best of them. But, I do try extremely hard to honor the spirit (not just the letter) of my treaties and to be honest. If I'm allied to someone, I won't attack; if I want to attack, I'll look for a reason to and I won't sign any treaties. I believe this makes me somewhat predictable but it also won't leave me without an ally. Well, unless I'm Russia, Russia always has that problem to worry about.
Never pick a small country either. Your influence on other people in MP games is directly related to your military score and has nothing to do with prestige or industry. If you start out with a small military, no one will even speak to you until you raise it big enough to go 1 on 1 against another GP, and that's next to impossible because no one will be willing to trade with or ally you and usually annex all your neighbours leaving you with no room to expand.
Lord Warchaser said:
I've never played Vicky MP (Lots of EU2 MP though), but looking forward to do some. With EU2 experience, this statement looks very strange to me.
In EU2, a smaller ally is still a good ally. It can commit an army or two where needed, and most importantly it can draw your enemys attention, and make him engage in a two-front war. A small ally can thus easily tip the balance in an even war. In a Vicky setup, if I were to fight Germany with France, I would be happy to have Sweden helping me, even if they only fielded 40 divisions or so. That is still a major distraction for the German high command. So I would appreciate a small ally very much, and certainly trade lots with them.
Are regular Vicky MP players just diplomatically very different or is there actually some disadvantage in being friendly with smaller nations? Or was this just a tongue-in-cheek statement
If you make no mistakes there are only 2 important things in the game, but these 2 wont go together very well:
- Industry
- Diplomacy
If you have a large industry you can make a lot of money. If you make a lot of money you will use it for 2 things: Army increasing and Industry increasing... However both have maxes: Population and national production... The only way to extent these maxes is fighting wars and taking territory... This however will make you a Badboy in the eyes of your opponent and if you do it more i.e. better then your opponents you wont been abled to make diplomatic deals with them. so this strategy is only good when you can stand the other players in time and youll need to keep that time when they will attack you as far as possible as time will be your best friend...
The other way is getting friends with other players and gaining that industry increase from techtrades, 2step annexing of uncivs, colonisation... This way is easier and youll need less vicky skill... however diplomatic skill is needed for this and if you win using this strategy it wont be a big victory...
- Industry
- Diplomacy
If you have a large industry you can make a lot of money. If you make a lot of money you will use it for 2 things: Army increasing and Industry increasing... However both have maxes: Population and national production... The only way to extent these maxes is fighting wars and taking territory... This however will make you a Badboy in the eyes of your opponent and if you do it more i.e. better then your opponents you wont been abled to make diplomatic deals with them. so this strategy is only good when you can stand the other players in time and youll need to keep that time when they will attack you as far as possible as time will be your best friend...
The other way is getting friends with other players and gaining that industry increase from techtrades, 2step annexing of uncivs, colonisation... This way is easier and youll need less vicky skill... however diplomatic skill is needed for this and if you win using this strategy it wont be a big victory...
Diplomacy is everything. No matter how big or small the country you pick. Once you decide who you wish to play you then need to determine what your winning goal is. Being the biggest country, the richest country or the one with the highest prestige or industrial score may not be viable or it may not be that important.
Technically surviving the game is victory. Considering that you are RPGing a nation during the victorian days with limited internal realistic activity (meaning you don't really have all that much to worry about as far as internal considerations) and by far more external activity than actually existed (because the loss of troops is really only a number and not real lives that were at stack for the real countries in that time), not to mention the inability to do important diplomatic dealings such as apply military or economic stress to force AI countries (VICKY NEEDS ULTIMATIUMS and COUNTRY v. COUNTRY TRADE).
Once you have established a goal that is realistic to your wants and needs begin by determining the path to get there. If you need to fight a war against a great power then get other GPs involved. If you later need to fight another war against one of your former allies then keep that in mind and get some GP backing for that one. If you are playing a small coountry in Europe and wish to make them bigger and stronger get a real good Alliance with a GP and keep them up to date with your plans for expansion so that they can help you gather allies or for backing. Try not to turn on your allies or leave them in a pickle by saying '...by the way i am DOWING Germany right now i need your armies'. This really is a fast way to make people mad.
That is about it. Play the SP game to learn mechanics and then dive right in. Just remember that Diplomacy takes on a whole new meaning in MP and so does war. Good Luck
Technically surviving the game is victory. Considering that you are RPGing a nation during the victorian days with limited internal realistic activity (meaning you don't really have all that much to worry about as far as internal considerations) and by far more external activity than actually existed (because the loss of troops is really only a number and not real lives that were at stack for the real countries in that time), not to mention the inability to do important diplomatic dealings such as apply military or economic stress to force AI countries (VICKY NEEDS ULTIMATIUMS and COUNTRY v. COUNTRY TRADE).
Once you have established a goal that is realistic to your wants and needs begin by determining the path to get there. If you need to fight a war against a great power then get other GPs involved. If you later need to fight another war against one of your former allies then keep that in mind and get some GP backing for that one. If you are playing a small coountry in Europe and wish to make them bigger and stronger get a real good Alliance with a GP and keep them up to date with your plans for expansion so that they can help you gather allies or for backing. Try not to turn on your allies or leave them in a pickle by saying '...by the way i am DOWING Germany right now i need your armies'. This really is a fast way to make people mad.
That is about it. Play the SP game to learn mechanics and then dive right in. Just remember that Diplomacy takes on a whole new meaning in MP and so does war. Good Luck
Yep, Diplomacy is the easiest and in many games and with many nations also the only way... However some nations can do almost without : Russia (I did it in G&D) , UK, USA...
For other nations I would not advice it...
At least not if you cant do a WC with that nation...
For other nations I would not advice it...
At least not if you cant do a WC with that nation...