Hs 129 and P-47 breaks the game

[Tankovsky]

Unfortunately after the release AA completely ceased to shoot down this planes, and even after the patch, everything also remains.
And if the Thunderbolts from 101 divisions can destroy one tank at a time, then the Hs-129 can destroy several armored targets at once, and the presence of air defense does not give you any guarantees at all.
And the most interesting thing is that the tank can not be hidden !!??, unfortunately in the game it is not realized that the tank can be simply placed between two houses or behind a forest ridge, and then the plane simply will not receive a corner for attack from the course weapon.
All this practically depreciates the allied tanks in the game and rolls the game over to primitive tactics.
Why drag and torment guns if Hs 129 kills any tank ? ...Do not think about distance and angles, just call Hs 129 (or P-47) and a fighter that in these divisions is generally better than any allies.
Moreover, there are videos of attacking Hs 129 in the network there it is perfectly clear that they are attacking the columns on the march in the open area with very close range. From such a distance they should be vulnerable to anti-aircraft guns and the cases of shooting down these assault aircraft by anti-aircraft guns during the WW2 are known.
I agree that the loss of airspace should not allow you to attack when the attacking units are vulnerable to air assault, but not under your anti-aircraft guns which still need to be suppressed to begin the air assault.

 

[KattiValk]

Thunderbolts killing tanks is a rarity in my experience.

The Hs129 is definitely a terminator in the early game, but it gets panicked fairly quickly by AA. Have one or two AA pieces near tanks and they should dissuade one fairly easily in my experience. How much AA do you normally have?

 

[Tankovsky]

How much AA do you normally have?

Last time I played Spearhead and tried to put near the tank M16 and bofors other time - does not help.
Although once the AA saved tank, but it was another division and It seems there was a different type Hs 129.

 

[Asterozoa]

Last time I played Spearhead and tried to put near the tank M16 and bofors other time - does not help.

Just drop a smoke shell on your tank and move it 2 meters away, you nab.

 

[Tankovsky]

Just drop a smoke shell on your tank and move it 2 meters away, you nab.

Suggest you keep the tank in the smoke while Hs 129 does not run out of fuel? Very authentic gameplay...
It remains to start dividing the tanks from the stack so that the aircraft would go to another circle (as in wargame) and number of players online will be as in wargame.

 

[Byz]

I played Haudegen Division since Beta (~80% of all my Games with this Div), and while i have to admit that the HS-129 is effective against Armor its far from being OP.
It just punishes Players which are taking no measurements regarding Phase A Anti Air or Fighter Cover.
I never had a Game while playing with my Tank Deck Mates where my Henschel got to score as many kills as their King Tigers ect. And nobody calls them OP or Game Breaking.

Looks more like "bad" Players tempt to focus on Tanks to much (because Tanks are cool ect.) and get punished for that by HS-129 "Can-Openers"
I myself lost many HS-129 to better Players since they seem to know how to focus on Ground and Air Combat at the same time.

 

[Harold Alexander]

P-47 is fine, also after several nerfs HS is fine now IMO maybe need small resilence nerf.

 

[Tankovsky]

Looks more like "bad" Players tempt to focus on Tanks to much (because Tanks are cool ect.) and get punished for that by HS-129 "Can-Openers".

No, it's because you

~80% of all my Games with this Div.

Just play any tank allied DIv one-on-one.
Where the only thing that can support their weak infantry is encased in armor!!!
I see most simply playing either for the axis or for infantry divisions and does not feel such a problem. But it's not because it's not there, but from the fact that you just do not play for weak divisions, which, attention - is tank divisions !!! The governments of the countries have spent money and effort to make weak vulnerable tank divisions, when everything can be easily solved with the help of aircraft cannons, infantry and outdated tanks, as in this game now.

 

[Asterozoa]

Suggest you keep the tank in the smoke while Hs 129 does not run out of fuel? Very authentic gameplay...

Until your brownings and m16 scare it away. I love how a single unit makes you suffer when it's so easy to counter. Mememeh wargame mememe ungroup. L2P nab.

 

[Tankovsky]

Until your brownings and m16 scare it away

This will last until the next patch unfortunately. Because the shooting distance of this weapon is 800 meters Hs 129 will not hang over a smoky target, he just flies to a safe distance for example 1200 meters, just like the distance of shooting his gun.

 

[Ahab78]

Until your brownings and m16 scare it away. I love how a single unit makes you suffer when it's so easy to counter. Mememeh wargame mememe ungroup. L2P nab.

if the l2p "argument" is already cancercerous in itself this answer is the very superlative of it.

P-47 can kill tanks. Occasionally. I always make a screenie when it happens. Not an issue. (Only if you argue that there are far more effective planes out there for it's price tag. basically the contrary to "is OP")

HS-129 in both versions do kill tanks. Quite reliably. I'd feel tempted to make a screenie when it fails to kill the tanks.

Funny thing is....there's already like 5? threads about the problems related to it?

HS has seen a series of nerf by now. It seems to still be somewhat problematic in 1vs1 phase A and 10vs10 cheese games. At least that's what people say that do play these game modes. In 2vs2 up to 4vs4 they can be annoying (and I am still not convinced that they are in a good playce right now), but not at "game-breaking-levels".

Airwar and arty meta currently are far from being satisfying in general. Best games I played have been games with low plane/arty ratio and enduring infantry/tank battles.

Short: current problems are with the general state of planes. Both planes can be used as an indicator to that.

 

[Asterozoa]

if the l2p "argument" is already cancercerous in itself this answer is the very superlative of it.

It's already shown what division you will encounter. Why axis players should adapt to close quarter fights with flamers/AVRE or P-47 spam but allied that knows sooner or later he will see the plane that falls even from unvet tempest doesn't get ready for it and just whines on forums. It's not a thunderbolt you can't ever catch without keeping air patrol ready, just make the simple move - send your Mustang and punish it, m16 will help if enemy buys a bf109 to help it and bang - enemy can't make profit of whoopy 320 pts investment or even loses it.

This will last until the next patch unfortunately. Because the shooting distance of this weapon is 800 meters Hs 129 will not hang over a smoky target, he just flies to a safe distance for example 1200 meters, just like the distance of shooting his gun.

IIRC M16 has 1000 meters on air targets. Bofors has 1600.

 

[dmdelor]

I sympathize. OP or not, I do kind of think that the presence of capable AT planes makes the game generally less fun. The ground war in Steel Division feels so much better than the ground war in Red Dragon (and I love me some Red Dragon) just because scouting's easier and stuff tends to be harder to kill, so there's a lot more maneuvering and responding to what you see. Effective AT planes breaks that, a little bit.

I think a bigger issue, though, is that the air war in SD feels wonky in general. AA is not an effective "shield" as it's supposed to be unless you dump a ton of points into it, especially against the bomb/rocket planes that make up most of the game's air force. So, generally, you don't want to buy much/any AA unless you're really getting hammered with planes and then you buy into it hard. Most air stuff, additionally, generally can't murder a bunch of points quickly like an AT plane can, which further disincentivizes investing in AA as the normal course of play.

But then you have the AT planes, which can murder a bunch of points quickly and are more vulnerable to having their attacks blocked by AA because when they get stressed their accuracy suffers instead of them just going ahead and dropping bombs anyway. It's a whole different, higher stakes ballgame than most air.

Removing AT planes almost certainly isn't going to happen- that's not how Eugen works. What I might like to see instead is to have AA be made more capable of deflecting planes without having to dump 250+ points into it, probably by giving them a little more range and a suppression boost. In exchange, give bomb planes a small price buff and rocket planes a small price buff and a bit more accuracy or splash to help keep them worthwhile.

Those changes would hopefully create a game where AA is more broadly a useful thing that you'll always want to integrate into your front line in reasonable quantities. This indirectly is a nerf to AT planes because they'll only have a good target when a tank push overextends beyond the front line and AA cover.

 

[Ahab78]

It's already shown what division you will encounter. Why axis players should adapt to close quarter fights with flamers/AVRE or P-47 spam but allied that knows sooner or later he will see the plane that falls even from unvet tempest doesn't get ready for it and just whines on forums. It's not a thunderbolt you can't ever catch without keeping air patrol ready, just make the simple move - send your Mustang and punish it, m16 will help if enemy buys a bf109 to help it and bang - enemy can't make profit of whoopy 320 pts investment or even loses it.

thanks. I was in dire need of another l2p. We could just talk about the underlying problems instead about posting agreeable work-arounds.

I do kind of think that the presence of capable AT planes makes the game generally less fun. The ground war in Steel Division feels so much better than the ground war in Red Dragon (and I love me some Red Dragon) just because scouting's easier and stuff tends to be harder to kill, so there's a lot more maneuvering and responding to what you see. Effective AT planes breaks that, a little bit.

Agreed. Adjusting planes in one or the other way trying to strengthen the ground part of the game would really increase...fun.

things that might all in all be balanced still might not be fun to play.

 

[Adribenzema]

P—47 break the game???hahahahaha you make me laugh mate

 

[Herrmaus3r]

I sympathize. OP or not, I do kind of think that the presence of capable AT planes makes the game generally less fun. The ground war in Steel Division feels so much better than the ground war in Red Dragon (and I love me some Red Dragon) just because scouting's easier and stuff tends to be harder to kill, so there's a lot more maneuvering and responding to what you see. Effective AT planes breaks that, a little bit.

I think a bigger issue, though, is that the air war in SD feels wonky in general. AA is not an effective "shield" as it's supposed to be unless you dump a ton of points into it, especially against the bomb/rocket planes that make up most of the game's air force. So, generally, you don't want to buy much/any AA unless you're really getting hammered with planes and then you buy into it hard. Most air stuff, additionally, generally can't murder a bunch of points quickly like an AT plane can, which further disincentivizes investing in AA as the normal course of play.

But then you have the AT planes, which can murder a bunch of points quickly and are more vulnerable to having their attacks blocked by AA because when they get stressed their accuracy suffers instead of them just going ahead and dropping bombs anyway. It's a whole different, higher stakes ballgame than most air.

Removing AT planes almost certainly isn't going to happen- that's not how Eugen works. What I might like to see instead is to have AA be made more capable of deflecting planes without having to dump 250+ points into it, probably by giving them a little more range and a suppression boost. In exchange, give bomb planes a small price buff and rocket planes a small price buff and a bit more accuracy or splash to help keep them worthwhile.

Those changes would hopefully create a game where AA is more broadly a useful thing that you'll always want to integrate into your front line in reasonable quantities. This indirectly is a nerf to AT planes because they'll only have a good target when a tank push overextends beyond the front line and AA cover.

Agreed on all points. I can tell you how many times I'll build up a massive AA net, just to have planes fly on the edge of it and get the two or more units that were scouting ahead/holding the flank.

This should honestly be a thread, as it's obvious planes, (regardless of type) are a hassle to deal with and seem to be the only thing you can't trade with effectively unless your skill is vastly superior to your enemy's.

 

[Asterozoa]

thanks. I was in dire need of another l2p. We could just talk about the underlying problems instead about posting agreeable work-arounds.

That is only a problem if you can't get a workaround. AT plane that costs a ton of points should be able to nail ground targets. It's already too vulnerable to any counters and can be a game ruining investment.

 

[local-festival]

Just played a game vs 3FJ as Guards and I honestly didn't feel the nerf of HS =D

 

[Karlburg]

That is only a problem if you can't get a workaround. AT plane that costs a ton of points should be able to nail ground targets. It's already too vulnerable to any counters and can be a game ruining investment.

The allied equivalents don't actually kill tanks and they don't get them in phase A.

 

[Asterozoa]

The allied equivalents don't actually kill tanks and they don't get them in phase A.

Allied equivalents actually kill tanks and also soft targets and moreover they can easily get out from a battlefield due to higher speed.