I give up

[ravynwolvf]

Sorry, CK3 has some good things to offer, but it is without a doubt the most frustrating and unpredictable game I have ever played. Mostly I'm talking about warfare. If you start out or manage to become powerful and only need to rely on your own soldiers it's not as bad, but making alliances to try to grow from nothing to something is pure chance. You simply cannot rely on your allies. Even if they show up they often arrange themselves in a way that ensures defeat. Instead of joining you in seiging a castle, they sit next to you. Over and over an army superior to mine but much smaller than my combined with allies forces will attack me, and my allies take so long to react that my soldiers are almost gone by the time they arrive. Then their army gets shredded as they join the battle, and the next one that was two spaces away joins in in a similar fashion and gets destroyed as well. One fight they were marching right towards an enemy castle, and I followed right behind them. But instead they marched past it to nothing, it was too late for me to turn back and I got decimated, as did they when they finally did a u-turn.

For a strategy game it's inconceivable to have never fixed the way allies work. It wouldn't have been that complicated; personally I would have gone for a system where you can ask each ally to do one of three things. Attack enemy armies, siege enemy castles, or follow me (and I mean move to my space, not somewhere nearby to watch). But anything would have been an improvement. Instead you have a great medieval life simulator ruined by horrible combat.

 

[JonathanOfArc]

Here's something to chew on.

Your numbers (men) are what keeps enemies internal and external at bay. Your allies number add to yours to show to others you're big and tough. In war your allies may send men to help, but they won't put themselves in too much danger. Sure, your army plus theirs may defeat the enemy BUT at what cost? Are the numbers as such that your ally will be left with 1,000 men from his original 12,000? Because if so, they won't want to join that fight, even if it will result in victory. Your ally still has possible factions at their home they have to worry about, and neighbors all who see their numbers are WAY down. If they're going to be left vulnerable, they won't join in.

So I use allies more as a war deterrent than a war asset. I have 1,000 men. but my 2 allies also have 1,000 men so I project as an enemy of 3,000 men to anyone who wants to challenge me.
That being said... I usually stay away from alliances as much as I can. I try to never rely on any help and don't engage in anything I won't be able to handle myself. Marriages with my vassals are alright to keep strong ones out of factions, otherwise I'm very careful who my immediate family marries.

Warfare and how allies work in war could definitely use some work. I just worry we'll be given too much control, I don't want to be able to march my allies forces to their doom.

 

[Ajaxwindowcleaner]

ck3 involves a lot of risk management and picking fights against superior foes banking on your allies' help is a very risky strategy that only pays off occasionally

 

[frostbiyt]

For a strategy game it's inconceivable to have never fixed the way allies work

You simply cannot rely on your allies. Even if they show up they often arrange themselves in a way that ensures defeat.

I'm not going to drop a disagree on your post because yeah, you're right. The AI in this game is terrible, even after 5 years of development.

Instead of joining you in seiging a castle, they sit next to you.

It is funny however, that this was your first example, because this is an example of the AI behaving correctly. If you already have enough soldiers manning a siege, adding more will just increase the number of troops taking attrition and possibly put everyone over the supply limit. Having them next door allows them to respond quickly to a battle. You should already be doing this with your own troops.

the most frustrating and unpredictable game I have ever played.

Different from how you expect is not the same as unpredictable. Once you get a feel for how the AI work, you can take advantage of them. For example:

Over and over an army superior to mine but much smaller than my combined with allies forces will attack me, and my allies take so long to react that my soldiers are almost gone by the time they arrive. Then their army gets shredded as they join the battle, and the next one that was two spaces away joins in in a similar fashion and gets destroyed as well.

The enemy AI is just as bad as the ally AI. Now that you have discovered this behavior, use it to your advantage when facing an enemy coalition.

 

[Voidian]

I actually wish the AI was more of a scumbag than it already is.

I mean, that's exactly what the players do, the AI should learn from it.

Sure, they can help you in your wars, it's a neat way to farm prestige after all,

But

If they do not need the prestige they shouldn't send help
If they think you're too far away, they shouldn't send help
If they think they are going to lose too many men, they shouldn't send help.

If they wait around for too long you should be able to send them a letter complaining they aren't helping, like the AI does, and it should have an incentive to either pay you off or just break the alliance if it's not beneficial, just like the player does.


AI allies should never behave like loyal, obedient vassals, and they should never give priority for your wars over theirs.

Edit: That or change the system's rules so that both the player and AI would feel more compelled to honor their alliances, right now it's rarely worth doing it.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Sorry, CK3 has some good things to offer, but it is without a doubt the most frustrating and unpredictable game I have ever played. Mostly I'm talking about warfare. If you start out or manage to become powerful and only need to rely on your own soldiers it's not as bad, but making alliances to try to grow from nothing to something is pure chance. You simply cannot rely on your allies. Even if they show up they often arrange themselves in a way that ensures defeat. Instead of joining you in seiging a castle, they sit next to you. Over and over an army superior to mine but much smaller than my combined with allies forces will attack me, and my allies take so long to react that my soldiers are almost gone by the time they arrive. Then their army gets shredded as they join the battle, and the next one that was two spaces away joins in in a similar fashion and gets destroyed as well. One fight they were marching right towards an enemy castle, and I followed right behind them. But instead they marched past it to nothing, it was too late for me to turn back and I got decimated, as did they when they finally did a u-turn.

For a strategy game it's inconceivable to have never fixed the way allies work. It wouldn't have been that complicated; personally I would have gone for a system where you can ask each ally to do one of three things. Attack enemy armies, siege enemy castles, or follow me (and I mean move to my space, not somewhere nearby to watch). But anything would have been an improvement. Instead you have a great medieval life simulator ruined by horrible combat.

Ck3 claims to be a strategy game but has very little strategy to it. If you're overly reliant on allies you will lose, pick off smaller fish first

 

[ravynwolvf]

I'm not going to drop a disagree on your post because yeah, you're right. The AI in this game is terrible, even after 5 years of development.


It is funny however, that this was your first example, because this is an example of the AI behaving correctly. If you already have enough soldiers manning a siege, adding more will just increase the number of troops taking attrition and possibly put everyone over the supply limit. Having them next door allows them to respond quickly to a battle. You should already be doing this with your own troops.


Different from how you expect is not the same as unpredictable. Once you get a feel for how the AI work, you can take advantage of them. For example:


The enemy AI is just as bad as the ally AI. Now that you have discovered this behavior, use it to your advantage when facing an enemy coalition.

No, they aren't. I was just fighting another battle (yeah, I got sucked back in). AGAIN, we had more than enough to win. But I was sieging a castle, my allies were in three separate stacks nearby waiting, and I watched as the enemy combined every one of their stacks into one before attacking me. They then had 10,000 to my 5,000 and started beating the crap out of me. My allies should have moved to my space the minute they got in range to get to me in one move, but no. Instead they messed around and arrived when I had about 100 soldiers left. Thier 8000 then proceeded to get wiped, and suddenly we had less soldiers to go on than the smaller forced enemy. Mine were about 3/4 gone. This has happened again and again in my game; they are next to me, but don't come to my aid until I'm almost gone and they get wiped too.

 

[ravynwolvf]

I don't care if allies are busy in their own wars, or go off to be in a new one. Frustrating, but I can deal with it. I'd do (and do) the same thing. My entire problem is time and time again the allies are right there but don't seem to see the enemy coming and come to my aid too slow. The AI, however, will see ME any time I try to either sneak by the three spaces away, or try to attack them while they are sieging me. They always respond quickly. There is something different about the ally's prgramming that make them respond slower.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

No, they aren't. I was just fighting another battle (yeah, I got sucked back in). AGAIN, we had more than enough to win. But I was sieging a castle, my allies were in three separate stacks nearby waiting, and I watched as the enemy combined every one of their stacks into one before attacking me. They then had 10,000 to my 5,000 and started beating the crap out of me. My allies should have moved to my space the minute they got in range to get to me in one move, but no. Instead they messed around and arrived when I had about 100 soldiers left. Thier 8000 then proceeded to get wiped, and suddenly we had less soldiers to go on than the smaller forced enemy. Mine were about 3/4 gone. This has happened again and again in my game; they are next to me, but don't come to my aid until I'm almost gone and they get wiped too.

If they had 10k, and you only 5k, dont challenge them

 

[ravynwolvf]

If they had 10k, and you only 5k, dont challenge them

What does that even mean? They had 10000 total with allies. I had about 13000. How many do I need to have before its safe; ten times as many? There were plenty right there as I said if the programming made them move as they should.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

What does that even mean? They had 10000 total with allies. I had about 13000. How many do I need to have before its safe; ten times as many? There were plenty right there as I said if the programming made them move as they should.

Parity, but numbers arent equal 10k varangian vets is far stronger than 10k light infantry, which is far stronger than 10k levies. What are your advantage settings btw?

 

[ravynwolvf]

I'm no expert at the game, but I've played 150+ hours and know most of the basic ins and outs. I know about different troop strengths and what they counter. BUT, AGAIN it doesn't matter if you are suddenly outnumbered two to one because the three enemy allies piled into one stack and your allies were too busy picking daisies or violating the local sheep herd to help you.

 

[frostbiyt]

No, they aren't. I was just fighting another battle (yeah, I got sucked back in). AGAIN, we had more than enough to win. But I was sieging a castle, my allies were in three separate stacks nearby waiting, and I watched as the enemy combined every one of their stacks into one before attacking me. They then had 10,000 to my 5,000 and started beating the crap out of me. My allies should have moved to my space the minute they got in range to get to me in one move, but no. Instead they messed around and arrived when I had about 100 soldiers left. Thier 8000 then proceeded to get wiped, and suddenly we had less soldiers to go on than the smaller forced enemy. Mine were about 3/4 gone. This has happened again and again in my game; they are next to me, but don't come to my aid until I'm almost gone and they get wiped too.

Yeah, pretty typical of the AI, you hit the nail on the head in your first post:

You simply cannot rely on your allies.

Pretty much the only times I rely on an ally to win a war for me is: when I have to (defensive war) or when my ally could solo my enemy. If you are forced to rely on allies, first off hope that you only have one ally to wrangle, and second, follow them around and support them. Generally the best strategy for a situation like yours is to avoid getting into it in the first place.

With 150 hours, there are still plenty of... let's call them quirks, to learn about, so don't feel bad about rolling back to the previous autosave if something stupid like this happens. As you get better, you'll do that less often.

A good general strategy for starting out: Assess who you can or soon can take on, who is similar in strength to you, and who the major threats are. Work towards cleaning up the little guys ASAP to build your strength. Try to find a strong ally whose land you don't want (yet), if you're worried about another realm. If that's not an option, take on the realms similar to you in strength. Basically you want to grow as fast as possible until you've reached a safe power level. Then you don't need allies any more.