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Jul 12, 2012
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Anyone have insights or experiments of the math for idea points from battle? Everyone can choose there own threshold of gameyness but I'd like to understand it better. Is getting 40k militia murdered equal to 40k of guards and arty? Does the idea point decrease rewards for terrible quick fights? I've had a few "caught with my pants down" battles with heavy losses that didn't seem to give much MP.

Thanks!
 
Oh how I would love a response. This makes a big impact of strategy. Is it worth losing some MP in a pointless war to a lesser power to learn ideas to use against the big boys? Or is the manpower loss never worth it and one should just play for strategic points and just accept the idea points passively?
 
I think it is always better to save precious manpower than gain some idea points, so better idea is to lose ships than troops, if you need idea points...
 
I would agree, save your manpower. You never know when an army will get wiped out.
 
It's never worth it to lose either ships or manpower. Of the nations I've played only Russia can be blase about combat losses and even then it's better to have troops at hand than ideas. And I'm not sure anyone short of Britain can afford to throw money away on ships just to sink them for idea points.
 
There is no need to loose the ships, just loose the battle! It means retreat after 24 hours, and that even if you are winning.

Trade off, you loose VP, that might be a bigger problem that manpower it self, because more VP mean more provinces taken in the peace deal, so more manpower to flow in the next month.

Some ideas are worth manpower :

the economic ones (first 2) who are potentially providing more MP to you (more money so you can improve provinces, so get both moremoney and more MP). Guards and arty ideas will also potentially adequate more manpower, because you will have a top fighting force (no spam) while the other corp will simply besiege town/forteress (not assault pls). So less manpower loses, because usally you will have less than 8K for your sieges (unless specific cases, such as capital cities, torres vedra lines ...).

On that, if it was not the guard+ arty spam, the game is indeed quite balanced, where MP is the key more than money, but money (if used early and smartly) will provide a gradual boost at the MP. Troops qualities improving over the time, it would be also smart to tech rush that quality and beneficiate of it early to grab more lands earlier (and by so more MP earlier) even at the cost of some thousands extra, that will be compensate during the 15 years of gaming. On the other hand, bleeding dry your MP (or navy) only to rush the idea would give you exactly that : a bleeded dry nation with no active capacities. So all is in the balance.

Perso, I love to have some fight with the french navy against the RN, it allow to provide experience to my admirals, and give also some (small) boost to the idea; as I always retreat after the 24 hours, I do NOT loose ships so it is an event trade.
 
There is no need to loose the ships, just loose the battle! It means retreat after 24 hours, and that even if you are winning.

Perso, I love to have some fight with the french navy against the RN, it allow to provide experience to my admirals, and give also some (small) boost to the idea; as I always retreat after the 24 hours, I do NOT loose ships so it is an event trade.


1. It is called naval idea points exploit, and it is gamey tactic. In most MP games it is forbidden.
2. Economic ideas? I think it is poor choice , when you can take ideas boosting your troops.

It's never worth it to lose either ships or manpower. Of the nations I've played only Russia can be blase about combat losses and even then it's better to have troops at hand than ideas. And I'm not sure anyone short of Britain can afford to throw money away on ships just to sink them for idea points.

3. Money is usually not problem, with current loan/peace system. So losing ships not hurts player too much. Maybe with full blockade when WE is issue, but AI don't do this...
 
1. It is called naval idea points exploit, and it is gamey tactic. In most MP games it is forbidden.

1) I do NOT, repeat NOT, play MP, so why shall I care? In more, it is not free, as I stated you loose Victory point, so it imply you to take more province to get a good peace (or make war longuer, both options that can be harmfull). My advice was : do it 2 or 3 times max time to regroup the french fleet (exemple). that being historically exact, corresponding to the only 2 defeats Nelson got during that career(2 minor battles, where Latouche Trville went out to harass Nelson, in 1803 or 1802 I believe). used heavily with galey is obviously a 'no fun' tactic.

2. Economic ideas? I think it is poor choice , when you can take ideas boosting your troops.

2) I did not , repeat not, discarded those ideas, I did even named 2 of them, still in SP and playing France, taken the economic ideas (the first 2) will boost your money and will allow you to improve your internal strucutre, get more troops (and more money, so improve more regions). To say in 1808, I do cash 350 $ each month (so every 3 month I upgrade a province).It is a narrow, less walked path , that may or may not be of value for some people.




3. Money is usually not problem, with current loan/peace system. So losing ships not hurts player too much. Maybe with full blockade when WE is issue, but AI don't do this...
Loans are limitate. France can not take more than 35 loans at one time, more and economy will collapse on the long run. So improving your province (without loans), will provide a strong guer economy (not much interrest I do agree with you), more troops (that was my points, exchange a useless money against a valuable MP), and will make a 'snow ball effect' (more money, so can improve more provinces, that will lead to more money and more provinces to improve). Gains are marginal I do concede, but :
a) it is something to do when you have nothing else to do
b) it is for flavor and follow history
c) might be possible only in SP

d) it is simply a narrow , less wlked path that may (or may not) interrest aventurous players

Last you play MP, so your feels of the game, and your need are not the same as mines. I do hope you understand I respect your opinion and your comments, but somehow we are not talking about the same thing (my house rules do concern only me, as I only play against the AI, so I do have to find something to equilibrate the difference). In MP I believe the Pace of the game will simply make the optins I proposed simply dangerous, irrelevant, eventually will even lead to an early defeat ; while in SP I believe them to be viable options
 
If your gonna "cheat" to get idea points by surrendering or losing battles on purpose why not just use the idea cheat command?
 
Who said it was a cheat? Any reasons to call it a cheat?

Attacking the 10 ships of the Mediterranean Fleet under Nelson, even if it is only for 24 hours, will yield soem of your ships (assuming you play France) disbable for quite a time, might even loose 1 or 2 in the fight (if the dices are bad). So the factor risk exist. Futhermore, it is under similar circonstances that Nelson suffered the only 2 defeats of his whole carreer.

So why do you call it a cheat? There is no bovious reason, but implicitly suggest a poor conception (half arsed would used by some people) of the game ... Or , and it is worth, it is deemed a cheat because it is simply not fitting some people conception on how the game shall be played (similar to : the game is only for MP).

Let resume the situation at the 01/01/1805 (game situation) :

France to get peace MUST cross the channel. But France does have a smallest navy than UK. So the only way to succeed is to get a local advantage; by distracting the RN and take it soemwhere else OR to take it piece meal when they come close to French Naval bases.

Both cases imply that at one moment or another, fights where the RN will be in better position will happend. I just checked the 4 manuals that are offered to DL here, and nowehre, repeat NOWHERE, I found notice of a rule stating you have to continue the fight after the normal period of 24 hours!. So in such naval battles, one with a brain will retreat after 24 hours. Game rules make that in such case (with no lost in each side) the winner will get 0.7 Idea point while the looser will get a whole point!

Playing France , and haveing done numerous (50?) opening, I am given the opportunity to have btw 2 to 4 such naval battles, where I can stop the RN to move to Mediterranee sea , and catch Villeneuve fleet that is trying to avoid Nelson. Usually, the RN will quickly install a picket where my main fleet is (after 2 to 4 fights). At that point, instead of fighting and risking my small navy, I prefer trying to attract them somewhere else.

So It is not a cheat, there is no deliberate abuse of a poor AI, simply a strategy (that may be a moronic one, or a genious one, your opinion on that is by advance accepted, it is only the way I wanted to get fun).

I just lost 3 bg of guards because I attacked the main english force, while crossing a river ... So I do rebuild 3 guards bg. Is that a cheat? I believe same have happend in real life, one of the reasons why guards units where rarely used by any country , simply because you have to rebuild them if the sh***it hit the fan. A cheat would be to build 30 of them.

This idea might not be the most efficient, I can agree with that, but I do not see how on God earth you can call it a cheat without stating the AI is poorly done because the game is made for MP, SP being only a training mode! Are you saying, or stating such a thing? If yes, then do you stand as an official representative of P'Dox? Because in that case we would have a big problem : The product I bought is NOT, repeat NOT, corresponding to what was advertised. But I do not think you can say such a thing, neither claim to be a representative of P'Dox; you can only offer your 'well informed' opinion; so please instead of statign it is a cheat, reformulate (and learn on how reformulate, if you please) in something close too : I n my personal opinion, such strategy is not only poorly efficient, but it is bordering to a well know cheat! At least you would show some moderation (that is good for a moderator) in your statement, and not hurt my feelings (I hate when people know best what is good for me).