Ideas regarding ACOK/AFFC scenarios

[LAF1994]

Some general suggestions after trying the scripted scenarios:
1) During a game, I saw Stannis legitimize Edric Storm. This really seems like something Stannis shouldn't be doing...
2) If Stannis takes the throne and subsequently dies, then Shireen should have a choice whether to continue with the worship of R'hllor or return to the Faith of the Seven (if Stannis dies without taking the throne but Shireen is still alive, then she should automatically flip to the Faith).
3) When Daenerys becomes Queen of Meereen, the succession law should change to Cognatic Primogeniture.
4) If Daenerys chooses to stay in Meereen and become Empress of Ghiscar but still follows the Faith, then she should have the option to switch religion (either to the Harpy, R'hllor or Valyrian).
5) There should be a 'Collapse of the Iron Throne' event if there are no surviving claimants in Westeros. This would require that:
-Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella and Cersei are all dead (and the former 3 have no surviving children).
-Stannis, Shireen and Renly are all dead and Shireen has no surviving children.
-Young Griff and Daenerys are either dead, have been defeated, have not yet launched an invasion or have declined to travel to Westeros.
-Robb Stark has not taken the Iron Throne (which he can do after beating Joffrey)
If all of these conditions are met, then no one left in Westeros can justifiably claim the Iron Throne. Hence, the title of the Iron Throne is destroyed and the current Lords Paramount will be able to reclaim their old royal titles (i.e. they gain the 'Bleeding Years'-era empire titles as de jure and the Lordships Paramount are destroyed), with all the lords in the Crownlands becoming independent. If Daenerys or Young Griff return to Westeros, they will automatically gain control of King's Landing and the Iron Throne, with a CB to subjugate the now-independent Kingdoms once more (who can choose to fight for their independence or pledge fealty).

 

[Tiranasta]

5) There should be a 'Collapse of the Iron Throne' event if there are no surviving claimants in Westeros. This would require that:
-Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella and Cersei are all dead (and the former 3 have no surviving children).
-Stannis, Shireen and Renly are all dead and Shireen has no surviving children.
-Young Griff and Daenerys are either dead, have been defeated, have not yet launched an invasion or have declined to travel to Westeros.
-Robb Stark has not taken the Iron Throne (which he can do after beating Joffrey)
If all of these conditions are met, then no one left in Westeros can justifiably claim the Iron Throne.

There is still a legal heir in this case - off the top of my head, Doran Martell (even if Cersei is still alive, since she has no claim whatsoever). Of course, whether Westeros would actually accept him as king is another matter.

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure whether Doran is the heir, but he's certainly an heir.

 

[LAF1994]

There is still a legal heir in this case - off the top of my head, Doran Martell (even if Cersei is still alive, since she has no claim whatsoever). Of course, whether Westeros would actually accept him as king is another matter.

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure whether Doran is the heir, but he's certainly an heir.

How does Doran have a claim?
It's possible that one of the other Valyrian houses established after the Conquest might be able to draw a claim from a relationship to the royal line, but it's doubtful that any of the great houses would acknowledge them in any case.

 

[GamingHUD]

Maybe through Prince Maron Martell's wife, Daenerys Targaryen? Given the dates involved, it isn't entirely inconceivable that they would be Doran's grandparents, which would give you a similar scenario to Robert Baratheon's claim (through Rhaelle Targaryen).

Edit: I can't into math. They were more likely his great grandparents. That's stretching it pretty thin.

 

[Tiranasta]

Maybe through Prince Maron Martell's wife, Daenerys Targaryen? Given the dates involved, it isn't entirely inconceivable that they would be Doran's grandparents, which would give you a similar scenario to Robert Baratheon's claim (through Rhaelle Targaryen).

Edit: I can't into math. They were more likely his great grandparents. That's stretching it pretty thin.

Sorry, I posted in a hurry before and failed to explain myself. Yes, through Daenerys (a line of descent reaching back to Aegon IV). And sure, it's a distant relationship as you point out, but not that distant, and legally at least it's certainly something. But of course, it's quite likely that major parts of Westeros would refuse to recognize the claim, for that and other reasons.

 

[theKing1988]

It seems a bit far fetched that the other 6 Kingdoms would accept that inheritance of the Throne without Doran actually enforcing his claim with force.

So i guess i agree with the OP

 

[Rubidium]

It would seem like a Great Council would be a more likely outcome; I doubt the Iron Throne would just vanish, as it's been an institution for centuries by this point.

Off my head, the following would be logical claimants (in no particular order):
-Daenerys or Young Griff (if still alive)
-Doran Martell or his heirs
-Any real or purported bastards of Robert, Aerys or Stannis (remembering that the Dance of the Dragons saw several such pretenders arise in King's Landing)
-More distant Targ descendants (e.g. the Plums, the Velaryons)
-Lannisters (by proximity of blood to the last "legitimate" monarchs, the children of Cersei and "Robert") as well as the antiquity of their ancestry and former kingly status
-Arryns, Starks, again by antiquity of their ancestry and former kingly status
-Tyrells as the most powerful vassals and the family of the widowed queen of the last "legitimate" monarch
-Any other powerful vassals, by right of might

Have a Great Council with at least some of these as candidates, and the various kingdoms can choose to accept the ruling or reject it (in which case it's treated as either a claim war or an independence war, depending on their choice).

 

[LAF1994]

It would seem like a Great Council would be a more likely outcome; I doubt the Iron Throne would just vanish, as it's been an institution for centuries by this point.

Off my head, the following would be logical claimants (in no particular order):
-Daenerys or Young Griff (if still alive)
-Doran Martell or his heirs
-Any real or purported bastards of Robert, Aerys or Stannis (remembering that the Dance of the Dragons saw several such pretenders arise in King's Landing)
-More distant Targ descendants (e.g. the Plums, the Velaryons)
-Lannisters (by proximity of blood to the last "legitimate" monarchs, the children of Cersei and "Robert") as well as the antiquity of their ancestry and former kingly status
-Arryns, Starks, again by antiquity of their ancestry and former kingly status
-Tyrells as the most powerful vassals and the family of the widowed queen of the last "legitimate" monarch
-Any other powerful vassals, by right of might

Have a Great Council with at least some of these as candidates, and the various kingdoms can choose to accept the ruling or reject it (in which case it's treated as either a claim war or an independence war, depending on their choice).

The problem is, under those grounds all of the Lords Paramount could claim the Iron Throne.
While the Iron Throne has existed for 300 years, it's worth pointing that:
1) It was established by subjugating the kingdoms of Westeros, all of which had existed for far longer. The Starks, Arryns, Lannisters and Martells were all rulers of independent states before Aegon's Conquest. It's worth noting that the North and Iron Islands jumped at the chance to break away when Robert died (for different reasons) and if the Iron Throne lacks a clear incumbent the other kingdoms could easily follow suit.
2) Until Robert, all of the Kings on the Iron Throne had been Targaryens, and IMO the main reason why Robert was able to maintain the unity of Westeros after deposing House Targaryen was that he was strongly supported by Ned Stark and Jon Arryn (and the Iron Islands did try to secede). With the lines of Houses Targaryen and Baratheon disrupted, any would-be claimant is going to have a very hard time gaining the acceptance of the Lords Paramount.

 

[SBerger]

Robert claimed the Iron Throne because his grandmother was Rhaelle Targaryen, get your facts straight. Also, the Targaryen blood in Doran Martell is way too diluted at this time for him to make a serious claim. By this logic, House Manderly should claim the North because there are no Stark males to inherit and back in time, a Stark married a Manderly.

Also, given the fact that Aegon and his descendants rule via dragonback for so long, when the dragons finally died out, Targaryen power because the weakest it's ever been. No single house in the two scenarios has the power or resources to control the continent single-handed.

 

[LAF1994]

Robert claimed the Iron Throne because his grandmother was Rhaelle Targaryen, get your facts straight. Also, the Targaryen blood in Doran Martell is way too diluted at this time for him to make a serious claim. By this logic, House Manderly should claim the North because there are no Stark males to inherit and back in time, a Stark married a Manderly.

Also, given the fact that Aegon and his descendants rule via dragonback for so long, when the dragons finally died out, Targaryen power because the weakest it's ever been. No single house in the two scenarios has the power or resources to control the continent single-handed.

I wasn't referring to how he claimed it, I meant how he was able to keep it. He does say that it's "fear and blood" keeping Westeros in line, though- if the Baratheons collapse, it would be nearly impossible for another house to take control of the entirety of Westeros without dragons (or a very large army).

 

[SBerger]

In that case, given a Baratheon collapse on the Iron Throne, then the lord paramounts wouldn't just break away and become de jure empire of the Bleeding Years start, the Iron Throne would experience the same as Rome, a series of consecutive strong men/generals taking power only to be assassinated or deposed months later until someone can unite them again or a foreign invader comes along and forcefully breaks the Iron Throne apart and make their own petty kingdoms.

 

[theKing1988]

You sure about that? Consider the scenario that the OP is positing.

The Main Lannister line is exhausted, the Westerlands would fall to Kevans line (And if its AFFC game, Kevans line will hinge all on Martyn and Janei. If they die or remain childless thanks to the RNG, then Kevans line is exhausted too). The Baratheon family is wiped out. Robb Stark has not taken the throne and Dany/Young Griff are either dead or not in Westeros yet. Why would the Tyrells, Martells, Arryns aka. Littlefinger or whoever controls the North just roll over and accept whatever Strong man who gets control over KL first. The authority of the throne would lie in ruins. At the very best it should shatter whatever Crown Authority there is and at worst it should result in something like the OP is suggesting.

Forcing whoever wants to breathe new life into the Throne to do it ALL by force

 

[Kevyinus]

In that case, given a Baratheon collapse on the Iron Throne, then the lord paramounts wouldn't just break away and become de jure empire of the Bleeding Years start, the Iron Throne would experience the same as Rome, a series of consecutive strong men/generals taking power only to be assassinated or deposed months later until someone can unite them again or a foreign invader comes along and forcefully breaks the Iron Throne apart and make their own petty kingdoms.

Technically,

Spoiler: TV Show / Possible Future Book

that is what Cersei has done on the TV show. She has siezed seized the throne without having real legitimacy to take it because she had the power, and was in the right place to do it.

 

[LAF1994]

Technically,

Spoiler: TV Show / Possible Future Book

that is what Cersei has done on the TV show. She has siezed the throne without having real legitimacy to take it because she had the power, and was in the right place to do it.

The correct spelling is seized (Stannis moment).

Spoiler: TV Show / Possible Future Book

IMO (having not actually read the books and being reliant on second-hand spoilers) if something similar happens in TWOW it'll probably be under different circumstances, e.g. with Griff/Aegon in place of Dany. However, in this scenario there's still an alternative claimant for those opposed to Cersei to support. If this were not the case (the situation I originally suggested), then the other Kingdoms could easily try to break away (as the North, Iron Islands and possibly the Vale have).