IdeologiCORE

[unmerged(2619)]

I used to play CORE mod for HOI1 and I think I will try CORE for HOI2 too. With a preface: don't pay too much attention to historical vision beside it and to events texts. Luckily this is a game and not an history book neither a real war. So I take it as a game, as an intellectual challenge (like it could be the chess game). For exemple I don't care too much if an aircraft name is historically correct or not: in fact military history can be explained but it can't explain anything by herself... it's an history's product, it's not an history's cause. Anyway, reading this forum, especially in regard to italian history (but for many other aspect too), I noticed a marked nationalistic historical vision, often drifting to whole fascist assertions. Italian historiography many times has reached completelly different and opposed results. By the way, I think that Hitler's quote as signing, that can be seen here, can't be tolerated in this forum: History's judgement about nazi experience is certan and definitive. Finally I remember to Paradox moderator that in Italy there is still (luckily) a penal crime named "fascist apologia" and some profile's sognature are very close to that.

 

[unmerged(36425)]

Please be more specific about what you object to if you're going to complain about this.

 

[MateDow]

I used to play CORE mod for HOI1 and I think I will try CORE for HOI2 too. With a preface: don't pay too much attention to historical vision beside it and to events texts. Luckily this is a game and not an history book neither a real war. So I take it as a game, as an intellectual challenge (like it could be the chess game). For exemple I don't care too much if an aircraft name is historically correct or not: in fact military history can be explained but it can't explain anything by herself... it's an history's product, it's not an history's cause.

The entire vision of CORE is to provide the most historical gameplay experience within the HoI2 framework. We are going to strive to make everything histrorically accurate. This includes model names, starting OOBs, and technological ability and potential.

We also tend to think of it as somewhat of a history lesson. Through the use of events, we give the player the chance to make some of the decisions that governments had to make at that time. Hopefully through making those decisions, you see why governments made the decisions that they made.

Anyway, reading this forum, especially in regard to italian history (but for many other aspect too), I noticed a marked nationalistic historical vision, often drifting to whole fascist assertions. Italian historiography many times has reached completelly different and opposed results.

Part of the enjoyment for many players is the ability to "what if" in their gameplay. Another part of the CORE experience is the fact that everyone has the right to contribute. We might not accept their assertions, but that is also part of the process. If you don't agree with the viewpoint expressed, pull out your facts and let us know why. That is how we all learn.

By the way, I think that Hitler's quote as signing, that can be seen here, can't be tolerated in this forum: History's judgement about nazi experience is certan and definitive. Finally I remember to Paradox moderator that in Italy there is still (luckily) a penal crime named "fascist apologia" and some profile's sognature are very close to that.

If there is a violation of the forum rules, the moderators will deal with it. I have not seen anything that I would consider "out of bounds" or I would have said something, but I will keep a close eye and if necessary bring it to the attention of one of the site moderators. MDow

 

[unmerged(21069)]

I used to play CORE mod for HOI1 and I think I will try CORE for HOI2 too. With a preface: don't pay too much attention to historical vision beside it and to events texts. Luckily this is a game and not an history book neither a real war. So I take it as a game, as an intellectual challenge (like it could be the chess game). For exemple I don't care too much if an aircraft name is historically correct or not: in fact military history can be explained but it can't explain anything by herself... it's an history's product, it's not an history's cause. Anyway, reading this forum, especially in regard to italian history (but for many other aspect too), I noticed a marked nationalistic historical vision, often drifting to whole fascist assertions. Italian historiography many times has reached completelly different and opposed results. By the way, I think that Hitler's quote as signing, that can be seen here, can't be tolerated in this forum: History's judgement about nazi experience is certan and definitive. Finally I remember to Paradox moderator that in Italy there is still (luckily) a penal crime named "fascist apologia" and some profile's sognature are very close to that.

hmmmmm... so much to say.
Firstly, there are no Fascist (if you are refferring to Italian Fascism, a capital F is prefferred) claims made on this forum. There are a certain number of claims made by Italians and those who have studied Italy which seek to clarify Italy's ingame situation and make the game more historically accurate. Italy does not usually receive an accurate reccounting of its wartime experiences both because of the association with Fascism and because of the residual effects on history of Allied wartime propoganda; many English language books laugh Italy off as the joke partner of the Axis. While no one denies that Italy performed poorly in the war, its treatment by history is still lopsided and this may be seen in HOI. In recent years, there has been somethign of a mainstream reappraisal of Italy's WWII role in Italy and outside it, those of us with some knowledge of this phenomenon are simply attempting to see this knowledge included in CORE.

And by the way, quoting Mussolini is little different than quoting Karl Marx or Josef Stalin or Che Guevara, the signature in question is that of an American, I believe, and the law you mention is perhaps the most unneforced in Italy today (a year or two ago a court even allowed a party with "Fascist" in its name to run in local elections, it's also worth noting that Allesandra Mussolini was a Senator).

 

[unmerged(2619)]

hmmmmm... so much to say.
Firstly, there are no Fascist (if you are refferring to Italian Fascism, a capital F is prefferred) claims made on this forum. There are a certain number of claims made by Italians and those who have studied Italy which seek to clarify Italy's ingame situation and make the game more historically accurate.

This way to think equiparing the fascist Italy and his beahovior during WWII with the feeling of all italians is already an history mistake and is inside of this recent revisionist wave, those now so fashioned historical thinking who says that all deaths are equal to forgiving that someone fighted for good value and other fighted to defend a dictature. Sure the thousands and thousands workers who partecipated in the big strikes of '43 and '44 in nothern towns could not subscribe such equiparation and sure they hoped fascist Italy lost the war, contemporaneously feeling themself real italians. More, equiparing a State in war with his citizens is typical made by nationalist ppl but historically is seldom true. There is an anarchist motto who state: when the State get ready to kill, makes named itself Homeland. I'm not anarchist but I can subscribe this.

And by the way, quoting Mussolini is little different than quoting Karl Marx or Josef Stalin or Che Guevara, the signature in question is that of an American, I believe, and the law you mention is perhaps the most unneforced in Italy today (a year or two ago a court even allowed a party with "Fascist" in its name to run in local elections, it's also worth noting that Allesandra Mussolini was a Senator).

By the way, there is a big big difference quoting Marx or Che Guevara (I can leave Stalin in the trash of history) and quoting Mussolini or Hitler. And again by the way that unneforced law comes directly from italian Costitution that was a son of the antifascist struggle of a freat part of italian people: I know some ppl now would like to destroy it but for the moment is still the italian Costitution.
mmmm I stop here because I'm going OT. What I wanted to say initially is that I will try CORE hopening it will improve the playbility and the difficulty of the game, giving me a good challeng and making this I will not pay attention to his historical weltanschaung beside it, that many times is not sharable

 

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This way to think equiparing the fascist Italy and his beahovior during WWII with the feeling of all italians is already an history mistake and is inside of this recent revisionist wave, those now so fashioned historical thinking who says that all deaths are equal to forgiving that someone fighted for good value and other fighted to defend a dictature. Sure the thousands and thousands workers who partecipated in the big strikes of '43 and '44 in nothern towns could not subscribe such equiparation and sure they hoped fascist Italy lost the war, contemporaneously feeling themself real italians. More, equiparing a State in war with his citizens is typical made by nationalist ppl but historically is seldom true. There is an anarchist motto who state: when the State get ready to kill, makes named itself Homeland. I'm not anarchist but I can subscribe this.




By the way, there is a big big difference quoting Marx or Che Guevara (I can leave Stalin in the trash of history) and quoting Mussolini or Hitler. And again by the way that unneforced law comes directly from italian Costitution that was a son of the antifascist struggle of a freat part of italian people: I know some ppl now would like to destroy it but for the moment is still the italian Costitution.
mmmm I stop here because I'm going OT. What I wanted to say initially is that I will try CORE hopening it will improve the playbility and the difficulty of the game, giving me a good challeng and making this I will not pay attention to his historical weltanschaung beside it, that many times is not sharable

I would invite you to deal very carefully with Italian politics, it is a very complex matter even for Italians. Italian Constitution is usually seen as the result of anti-Fascist efforts, and for most part of it this is surely right: but it was man-made not God-made, thus changing it would not mean destroy it and/or create a new Fascist State. The laws, you refer to, exist, and every apology of Fascist State or every attempt to re-create Fascist Party is banned (I think Germany has same laws against Nazism), but these laws does not derive from the "real" Constitution but by a transitory act enclosed in the end of the Constitution: a similar act was cancelled a few years ago, allowing Savoy heirs to return to Italy.
I would invite you to deal very carefully with people too: here slandering is a crime too (even if I may agree with you for something), and I surely do not have to remember you that some European Countries have similar laws against Communism...
In the end, Italian people are very complex itself, and their history too, it would be an error to mistake widely felt patrioctic pride or some nationalistic positions or even simple historical facts with Fascism.

 

[unmerged(2619)]

I would invite you to deal very carefully with Italian politics, it is a very complex matter even for Italians. Italian Constitution is usually seen as the result of anti-Fascist efforts, and for most part of it this is surely right: but it was man-made not God-made, thus changing it would not mean destroy it and/or create a new Fascist State. The laws, you refer to, exist, and every apology of Fascist State or every attempt to re-create Fascist Party is banned (I think Germany has same laws against Nazism), but these laws does not derive from the "real" Constitution but by a transitory act enclosed in the end of the Constitution: a similar act was cancelled a few years ago, allowing Savoy heirs to return to Italy.
I would invite you to deal very carefully with people too: here slandering is a crime too (even if I may agree with you for something), and I surely do not have to remember you that some European Countries have similar laws against Communism...
In the end, Italian people are very complex itself, and their history too, it would be an error to mistake widely felt patrioctic pride or some nationalistic positions or even simple historical facts with Fascism.

I live in Italy and I'm 100% italian, I'm graduated in history at university with top of the votes, so I know what I say and think I've some number to speak about italian history and italian ppl. I don't slander nobody, especially italians, but I can't identify me with that fascist regime who took Italy under a dictature and brought it in a tragic war, neither I can identify me with that patriotic felt who always made intersts of ruling calsses. If you thought me I was slandering italian ppl, this is self-explaining. Your way to think is very typical of many nationalistic ppl: you forget every nation is class stratified and in every nation coexist different and opposed interests.

 

[Spricar]

this whole debate is OT and belongs into another part of the forum...

 

[unmerged(36425)]

"Your way to think is very typical of many nationalistic ppl: you forget every nation is class stratified and in every nation coexist different and opposed interests."

Look, I also feel uncomfortable when people promote a pro-fascist version of history on the Paradox forums (something I don't consider CORE1 or 2 to be guilty of doing). On the other hand NO-ONE WANTS A BLOODY MARXIST VERSION OF HISTORY EITHER, if you're one of those people who tries to explain away 95% of human conflict as "class warfare", you're not quite as morally reprehensible as a neo-fascist but you're probably just as annoying.

Actually I'll take back the "annoying" comment, I didn't mean to offend you. In fact I encourage you to make your own mod that explains your own hilarious interpretation of history. "HOI2: Dialectical materialism!"

 

[Antiochus V]

I always find it rather funny when people try to explain that some countries (namely Italy), is too weak or underpowered in the game. If anything it is usually way overpowered.

Historically Italy did about as well as it could. It is a bit weak to try to blame Italy's inability to conquer the world (or even Greece) on allied propaganda.

One of the great things about the first CORE was the way it reduced the stats of the French and Italian divisions to more realistic levels.

 

[unmerged(2619)]

Look, I also feel uncomfortable when people promote a pro-fascist version of history on the Paradox forums (something I don't consider CORE1 or 2 to be guilty of doing). On the other hand NO-ONE WANTS A BLOODY MARXIST VERSION OF HISTORY EITHER, if you're one of those people who tries to explain away 95% of human conflict as "class warfare", you're not quite as morally reprehensible as a neo-fascist but you're probably just as annoying.
Actually I'll take back the "annoying" comment, I didn't mean to offend you. In fact I encourage you to make your own mod that explains your own hilarious interpretation of history. "HOI2: Dialectical materialism!"

1) NO-ONE? pls speak for you and remove the BLOODY adjective. Things are not so simple as words you want put in my mouth. And about my history interpretation is so hilarious that living famous international scholars such english Eric Hobswan always work in circus. Just to make a name. And so hilarious that key historians of the past like french Bloc and Febvre (who were not marxist and who were the founders of the Annales school) accepetd some aspect of marxist historiography as a basic tools of a historic scholars. Just an exemple? How to explain actual anti-arab pogroms in Australia? Sure not directly with class struggle, but sure in that there are involved some class aspect.

2) And with this I wanna close my topic: my initial assertion was made after reading some CORE topic and I repeat here I can't share many ideas beside those discussion. This said, I repeat HOI2 luckily is a game and I don't care which historical vision is beside an event that give me a -10% dissent or give me a free division if this event make my game more fun. My knowledge of history don't come from HOI2 vanilla's or modder's events. As it's true I would never bring a rifle in my real life and instead of it I look for social collective tools of fight, I just look for a challenge and fun GAME.... GAME!!!!!!! Despite the ideas of many ppl here, I think war is funny only in games!!!

 

[Antiochus V]

I live in Italy and I'm 100% italian, I'm graduated in history at university with top of the votes, so I know what I say and think I've some number to speak about italian history and italian ppl. I don't slander nobody, especially italians, but I can't identify me with that fascist regime who took Italy under a dictature and brought it in a tragic war, neither I can identify me with that patriotic felt who always made intersts of ruling calsses. If you thought me I was slandering italian ppl, this is self-explaining. Your way to think is very typical of many nationalistic ppl: you forget every nation is class stratified and in every nation coexist different and opposed interests.

It sounds as it is only Italy that that has a class stratification problem. I live in England, and now thanks to our current government we are headed towards being a classless society.
Large portions of our city dwelling society have no class at all, they wander around in tracksuits, wear 'bling', wear baseball caps indoors. It is pretty appalling.
It makes one wish for the old days of class warfare.

 

[unmerged(36425)]

1) NO-ONE? pls speak for you and remove the BLOODY adjective.

I'll say bloody as much as I bloody please you bloody Australio-phobe.

How to explain actual anti-arab pogroms in Australia? Sure not directly with class struggle, but sure in that there are involved some class aspect.

The fighting is taking place primarily between the non-Lebenese residents of Cronulla and Lebenese Muslim residents of Lakemba, both middle class areas that used to be lower middle class areas. I can identify lots of factors that caused this but "class" isn't one of them.

 

[Antiochus V]

I'll say bloody as much as I bloody please you bloody Australio-phobe.




The fighting is taking place primarily between the non-Lebenese residents of Cronulla and Lebenese Muslim residents of Lakemba, both middle class areas that used to be lower middle class areas. I can identify lots of factors that caused this but "class" isn't one of them.

Perhaps a lack of class :rofl:

 

[unmerged(2619)]

I'll say bloody as much as I bloody please you bloody Australio-phobe.

my perspective is internationalist so I can't be whatever country-phobe. It would be a contradiction, but if you reply in this way I can guess you're an Australio-centric.

THE END

This thread is really really going OT

 

[Antiochus V]

my perspective is internationalist so I can't be whatever country-phobe. It would be a contradiction, but if you reply in this way I can guess you're an Australio-centric.

THE END

This thread is really really going OT

What exactly is an 'internationalist' perspective?

 

[unmerged(36425)]

What exactly is an 'internationalist' perspective?

It's probably something to do with Trotskyism. You may remember Trotsky from the "Do you want to spare Trotsky or stab him in the head?" event you recieved when playing as the USSR in Core1.

 

[Antiochus V]

It's probably something to do with Trotskyism. You may remember Trotsky from the "Do you want to spare Trotsky or stab him in the head?" event you recieved when playing as the USSR in Core1.

Ah yes, he was obviously the wrong kind of internationalist for stalin's liking.

I guess internationalism means putting the needs of European political elites first. i.e. a system a bit like the European Union, plenty of nice lunches and large expense accounts.

 

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It would be helpful if you actually pointed out what has got you so riled instead of raging against the machine in generalised, non-specific terms.

Despite the number of replies, I haven't actually heard any genuine criticsms of CORE as of yet.

 

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As it's true I would never bring a rifle in my real life and instead of it I look for social collective tools of fight, I just look for a challenge and fun GAME.... GAME!!!!!!! Despite the ideas of many ppl here, I think war is funny only in games!!!

yes, a fun GAME.... GAME!!!!!!! WITH A HISTORICAL PREMISE, a premise which CORE attempts represent more accurately and which all in this forum hope is represented more accurately


With regards to Italy's being over- or under- powered:
Italy's potential did not match it's performance, several 100,000s of its best men, w/ the country's best equipment fought on the Russian front and fought well, often extremely well, these are resources which an HOI player will use in Africa, France or the Balkans. As for the invasion of Greece, bad weather preventing naval landings, the idiotic decision to invade in late october (dirt, mountain roads in the rainy season), and the stupid idea of using only the rather weak garrison of Albania, should not be held against the Italian army at large. Again, an HOI player runs over Greece, exactly as the actual, pre-existing, Italian invasion plan had said to do: naval landings, and 27 divisions (as supposed the 9 the Italians invaded with).