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Which nation should replace Granada?

  • Kazakhs (North of Uzbekistan)

    Votes: 15 10,3%
  • Dulkadir (Eastern Anatolia)

    Votes: 20 13,8%
  • Korea (Vassal of China)

    Votes: 52 35,9%
  • Taungu (Burma)

    Votes: 3 2,1%
  • Cambodia

    Votes: 14 9,7%
  • Zanj (East Africa - Swahili States)

    Votes: 41 28,3%

  • Total voters
    145

Doomdark

Chief Creative Officer
Paradox Staff
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Apr 3, 2000
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As you probably know by now, Granada won't be around anymore in IGC 2.3. The tag will be used for another nation, but the choice is agonizing. We are flat out of tags, so think very carefully before you choose. This poll will be decisive. (I have no wish to catch any flak for making the wrong decision this time.)
 
I want a new nation in South East Asia so I'm quite torn between those options which either seem fine to me. Went for Cambodia in the end so people would stop easily getting a huge city in Mekong :D

In regards to them being diplo annexed by China (same goes for Korea, Japan, Dai Viet and so) how about just giving them a different state religion ? There are muslim tags after all ...
 
I'd say Zanj. Let's give people a chance to annex some African nations as well. I'll vote as soon as i get a decent browser.

Besides, BiB, what's wrong with Mekong?
 
Originally posted by hjarg
I'd say Zanj. Let's give people a chance to annex some African nations as well. I'll vote as soon as i get a decent browser.

Besides, BiB, what's wrong with Mekong?

The fact people can get a huge profitable colonial city there, most likely with a COT, before Europeans even got a decent TP opened up there :D
 
I voted Khazak but Korea might be nice to include

assuming that as a China vassal it doesn't become annexed too easily. The reason I didn't choos eKorea was that I think it would be the hardest to implement without negative effects such as automatic annexation by China, in which case it would be just another Granada.

But now that so many potential revolters have been taken from Spain, what does that do to balance? There is now just Catalunia and Aragon as potential Spanish revolters - both Sardinia and Granada have been removed and France has lost Provence as a revolter.
 
Dulkadir

i think it would be great to add another potential ally to persia and the mameluks, gives them more of a fighting chance and nother nation to marry with

Kazaks would be second on this list

Another possibility might even be the muslim sultanate of java
 
Yay for Dulkadir!

So glad to see the Dulkadir coming up nicely on the poll though it's still too early to celebrate :)

--Bylandt: Dulkadirs, despite their Arabic dynastic name, were a Turkmen family that ruled over a good chunk of southeastern Anatolia for almost two centuries. Turkmens are a Turkic people that were literally -pushed- into Asia Minor by the Mongol hordes. The dominant element of the Dulkadirs' power base was one of these nomadic Turkmen clans, the Bozoks. Beylik of Dulkadir was treated much like a buffer zone between the Mamluks and the rapidly expanding Ottoman Empire.

The only problem I see with this option is where to place Dulkadirs on EU's less-than-perfect map. Aleppo province "looks" right, but Dulkadirs never ruled over Aleppo the city. The Adana province on the other hand was home to another "beylik," Ramazanogullari (Ramadans). As for Sivas, it'd work better than the first two I guess, but it seems way too north for Dulkadirs. Any ideas?

Tuna
 
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Zanj

I'd vote for Zanj. I'd like to see some more nations in Africa. Hopefully an EU2 or future mod will allow exploration into the Terra Icognita and we could contact some truly great African Kingdomws.

As for Cambodia I think letting Dai Viet or Ayutthaya have a little colonial aspirations would eliminate the Mekong promblem.

Korea sounds good but it will probably just be annexed by China anyways.

Kazaks would be yet another hurdle to prevent Russia from reaching Siberia. (In one IGC 2.0 I played, Russia was down to Moscow and Kazan, beinging soundly thumped by Turkey and Sweden. Golden Horde was going strong up to the 18th century)

I guess I could live with the Dulkadir. Although it doesn't do anything for me like Zanj does...
 
I haven't decided what to vote for yet, I'm going to try to research on them first. One thing though, do you think it would be possible to have the Granada province occupied by rebels with a minimal fort and have a good sized Spanish army seiging it so it can get captured within a few days after the game starts?
 
Dulkadir all the way! I've lobbied for them to be in the game from the time I got on these boards.

As for its location, from a 1493 map I have in front of me, Sivas province looks like it would be just about right for them.

I could live with Zanj, but the rest seem to me to be not all that useful, especially the Khazaks.
 
Originally posted by Crook
Can someone here explain why Dulkadir is better than anything else? I would say Kazakhs, Burma and Swahili have a decent chance of surviving, everyone else will dissappear within 20 years.

Hi Crook,
To be quite honest, I haven't cast my vote with game play issues in mind... You might be correct in saying that the Dulkadirs would indeed disappear from the game within 20-30 years (they did historically anyways) and their presence might even hinder Turkish advance into the Middle East etc...

Nonetheless, the "Beylik of Dulkadirogullari" was a -real- state, as organized as any Near Eastern Turkomen dynasties could be--just compare them with a -supposedly- centralized "Swahili" or "Kazak" state, and you'll see why many people have a real problem with those options.

tuna
 
Voted for "Dulkadir". They seem like they would be a fun nation to play.

ErrantOne
 
I voted for Korea.

Now the reasons why I didn't vote for the others are:

Kazakhs: I don't see a purpose for the Kazakhs. During the 1429-1792 era they were just a huge empire comprised of various 'Hordes'. I'm happy with almost all of the other 'siberian' tribes. And besides, I don't see the Kazakhs making that big of a difference. I mean, the various siberian tribes don't make that much of a difference. They quarrel with each other. Russia swallows them. End. A united Kazakh that encompasses almost all of Siberia ruins the whole, different tribes to quarrel and fight with on your own. Then out of the strongest, to fight against Russia. It's like choosing Milan or something and trying to take over Italy, then the world. I don't need an already united Italy! Ruins the phases of uniting your nation. :(

Dulkadir: I don't see it being that interesting. All I can see is them fighting the Mamalukes. Then the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) annexing them right away. I mean, Dulkadir would be kind of dumb. Just having Turkey annex them. Now we're back where we started! If they are incorperated, hopefully they won't get annexed right away. Like in 1522 (that's the year they really became part of the ottoman empire).

Taungu: I guess they would be kind of interesting. Something to rival the Dai Viet. But I don't see southeast asia having that much of an impact on things.. Besides, the real power of Asia was in the hands of the 'far east'.

Cambodia: Yet another southeast asian country. I don't see a big deal on it.

Zanj: I guess they could add a little more spice to the african continent. Hopefully they won't get tossed around (as i think) like a little doll.

Forget that! I MUST admit Zanj would be an 'excellent' choice. But only if it was controlled by the computer. Beacause you could watch them rebel against Iraq and then being crushed. But it would be cool watching the rebellion. Then it being crushed. Or would it?... Because playing as Zanj wouldn't be that much fun. Being vassalised (maybe even being annexed) by the middle East. And having Persia, Iraq and most of the middle eastern countries tossing you around. Damn!

The reason I chose Korea was for two reasons.

First off, Korea WOULDN'T be THAT big of a deal either.. Like ALL the other aforementioned countries.

But I think they could spice things up in east asia. Now unlike all other 'other' countries mentioned, I think they COULD be interesting computer controlled and/or human controlled. Now their only impact on the game would be in Asia. Not in Europe. But that's the same rule as in like, the Aztecs wouldn't make that big a differnce in Europe (like the aztecs will invade europe? hahaha). Or England having that big of a effect on hawaii. etc.. I think they would spice things up for the human player/computer player because Korea could rebel against China right away. Being vassalised and all. Making war really interesting early on. And during the time of the 'new' choson, even though Korea was vassalised by China, rebellion because of unfair Manchurian rule wasn't uncommon. In fact, the rebellion I'm talking about in the game would lead to Korea to even invent our own language (Hangul), through prosperity.. And Korea made friends with either Japan/China and made the other the enemy. So they could add favor/unfavor in east asia. Making the scales tip up and down. Getting things interesting. 1592 would also KICK ASS! Cause you could change the A.I. in Japan during that time (Hideyoshi's Rule) to have them try to invade China. You know, like in real life during that time, add tension in East Asia between China and Japan. Drop diplomacy and stuff between Japan and China. Because then you could have Hideyoshi invade Korea, and as the korean country it would be your job to STOP the huge japanese naval and infantry advance!! You could add Admiral Yi Sun-Shin as a leader of Korea. Giving him a huge NAVAL boost! Because he's the one who stopped the japanese naval invasion. And besides military. Korea could also be HUGE religious wise TOO in East Asia!! Because of all the European missionaries going to Asia, many failed to convert in China, so they tried in Korea. And in fact, were more successful in Korea. In fact, I think that's how japan became aware of Christianity. Through being introduced to the religion when they captured Koreans during Hideyoshi's attempt to invade Korea. So Korea could be christian and not muslim. And even have Protestant REFORMS! After Hendrik Hamel wrote his experiences about Korea (the first book on Korea published in Europe), Korea had an evergrowing contact with the western world. So during the first religion reform in the game, when you can convert to Protestantism, Korea should reform just like England. So they wouldn't be just 'another' catholic country. They could be a reformed protestant country too!

Second, I'm Korean. So I would love to see my country in the game. And we have a rich history. So it would definitly be interesting to see Korea enter the game.

But this is all my opinion.
 
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Well, I went with the Zanj, regretting the need to only choose one. I felt the only ones to (probably) positively effect game play were Zanj, the Burma one, and Cambodia. How to choose? I took some omens, and followed the suggested results...
 
Hullo!

Well, I voted Zanj/ Swahili for obvious reasons - I´ve been bitchin´ about getting a sub-Saharan nation in the IGC for a long time. They´re anabstraction for sure but so are many other nations in 1492(e.g. Morocco and Algiers). Zanj would of course not be able to survive if a human plays as a major colonizing nation, but I think they would do fine in a hands-off.

Ottoman colonial dynamic should be turned off though if Zanj gets into the game - I´ve always interpreted the Ottoman colonization of East Africa as the best way EU could handle the short lived Ottoman suzerainty over Zanj in the late 1500´s.

Dulkadir won´t survive even in a hands-off though it might be fun for human.

Kazakhs - well, the Russian AI has trouble enough getting into Siberia and to a human Russia player they´re just an afternoon snack.

Korea, Burma , Cambodia - I think that rather than to add nations in East Asia now we (hmm, Doomie I mean) should focus on a IGC alternate history option where China and Nippon are freed from their current limitation - perhaps a fantasy scenario where the Jesuits managed to convert both nations?

This would allow China and Nippon to interact diplomatically with the West on a much more equal level. In such a scenario Europe could be more abstracted and tags used to create more East Asian nations.

Cheers,
Vandelay
 
Hmm, that sudden jump of Korea from 9 to 22 in three hours makes me very suspicious. Someone trying to cheat!? :mad:
 
voted Zanj/ Swahili for obvious reasons - I´ve been bitchin´ about getting a sub-Saharan nation in the IGC for a long time. They´re anabstraction for sure but so are many other nations in 1492(e.g. Morocco and Algiers). Zanj would of course not be able to survive if a human plays as a major colonizing nation, but I think they would do fine in a hands-off.

Firts morocco and algiers were not abstract nations, there were in fact the Wattasids and Ziyanid kingdoms, just look at this map of the 15th century muslim world (albiet Dulkadir is not shown).

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~rs143/map6.jpg

Dulkadir was itself a close ally to the Mameluks and if & when conquered (dulkadir was not incorporated into the ottoman empire until 1522 by means of treachery not war) would hopefully provide another middle east region with nationalist uprising potential (which is true since the former lands of dulkadir revolted agaist ottoman oppression in 1526-28, 1595-1610, 1654-55, and 1658-59).

In regards to subsahara africa, the Zanj Sawahil are just another minor kingdom of sunni muslims for the ottomans to vassilize and annex, and to remove the ottoman colonial capabilites would remove there ability to convert europe to islam. Looking at africa the major subsaharas were the Songhai (almost entirely TI), Kanem-bornu (entirely TI), nubia was nothing more than shattered warrior states so as I have stated before it should be removed, Ashati and Benin and the other east affican existed mostly in TI, The nation that could be simulated well would be the Congo River Kingdoms (however you would be stuck in the middle of nowhere for years and years until you managed to start exploring and colonizing and you would be a pagan nation). I guess if that is what you would like it could be made as an option.

Kazakhs - well, the Russian AI has trouble enough getting into Siberia and to a human Russia player they´re just an afternoon snack.

agreed, there were more or less a part of the golden horde anyways

Burma (Pegu), Cambodia (Ladyien), Khmer, or the Muslim Sultanate of Malacca (Indonesia) would all be good choices aswell however Korea seems the best now that I think of it.

Personally, I now think that Korea (yooper_washed won me over in his argument) and that Nubia should be removed and replaced by Dulkadir since it was stabile nation and not a collection of petty warlords