Immersion Concerns for Muslim Playthroughs

[Rex Hiemis]

I love roleplaying in this game, so immersion is very important to me. However, when playing as a Muslim character, I’ve noticed certain elements that break immersion. For example, tavern events appear as if drinking alcohol isn’t forbidden in Islam. Similarly, during feasts, the game doesn't reflect the historical separation of men and women that was typical in many medieval Islamic courts. Additionally, temple buildings always have Christian-style names, as if we’re constructing monasteries, which doesn’t fit the Islamic context. The vineyard building in administrative estates should have an alternative in case of Muslim administrative empires. I really hope Paradox addresses these issues in future updates. In the meantime, I'm open to any mod suggestions that improve historical or cultural accuracy for Muslim characters.

 

[vyshan]

if you want a mod that improves things for Muslims, I recommend Muslim Enhancements. RICE also has some stuff for different muslim areas around the world is such a fun mod to always include IMO.

 

[Greg2344]

Muslims elites now and especially during the medieval period drank alcohol quite a bit. Only the most pious would abstain, just like how many Christian rulers had a ton of side chicks and concubines unofficially.

 

[Rex Hiemis]

Muslims elites now and especially during the medieval period drank alcohol quite a bit. Only the most pious would abstain, just like how many Christian rulers had a ton of side chicks and concubines unofficially.

Some members of the Muslim elite, rulers or even certain caliphs indeed consumed alcohol. However, the norm was not to, as it was forbidden. Therefore, I believe events should be portrayed according to this norm, leaving it to players to choose whether they wish to act outside of it.

 

[Greg2344]

Some members of the Muslim elite, rulers or even certain caliphs indeed consumed alcohol. However, the norm was not to, as it was forbidden. Therefore, I believe events should be portrayed according to this norm, leaving it to players to choose whether they wish to act outside of it.

Is it already not like that, or are Muslims sometimes forced to be portrayed as drinking at events or whatever? I thought usually any events involving drinking you can decline, and they aren’t explicitly drinking alcohol at feasts, anything can be in the cups of random NPC’s.

 

[Rex Hiemis]

Is it already not like that, or are Muslims sometimes forced to be portrayed as drinking at events or whatever? I thought usually any events involving drinking you can decline, and they aren’t explicitly drinking alcohol at feasts, anything can be in the cups of random NPC’s.

Well, not according to the text that appears in the feast events. Besides, men and women feast together at the feast, whereas historically, they feasted separately.

 

[Greg2344]

Well, not according to the text that appears in the feast events. Besides, men and women feast together at the feast, whereas historically, they feasted separately.

That makes sense and should be changed then.

 

[ProfHardknocks]

I love roleplaying in this game, so immersion is very important to me. However, when playing as a Muslim character, I’ve noticed certain elements that break immersion. For example, tavern events appear as if drinking alcohol isn’t forbidden in Islam. Similarly, during feasts, the game doesn't reflect the historical separation of men and women that was typical in many medieval Islamic courts. Additionally, temple buildings always have Christian-style names, as if we’re constructing monasteries, which doesn’t fit the Islamic context. The vineyard building in administrative estates should have an alternative in case of Muslim administrative empires. I really hope Paradox addresses these issues in future updates. In the meantime, I'm open to any mod suggestions that improve historical or cultural accuracy for Muslim characters.

Christians aren't allowed to eat shellfish, drink alcohol, have tattoos, sleep with their wife during her period, women must cover their hair in public. Even if today's christianity ignores these things to persecute abortion and gays instead, you MUST follow all these rules. I don't see anyone asking for a bunch of "did he eat shellfish" snooping schemes and "is that underwear made of mixed fibers?" snooping.

How accurate does it need to be? Please, study the 800-1100 AD history of arab wine poetry and you will see that "Muslims are X" is just branding. Muslims are people, and all religions have too many rules to follow anyway, and people just do what they want anyway - especially in a religion that gives you an "out". Christians have no moral cause, their sins are pre-forgiven so might as well not waste the uh, credit card limit on that salvation thing. A muslim merely need die in battle against enemies of Islam to have their million virgins in heaven even if they spent a life of wearing gold, smoking tobacco, drinking wine, fornicating, and consorting with witches. Not to mention "this isn't gay it's just that men are for fun".

I will agree that the art style for somne things, and localization + flavorization could use some work.

 

[Greg2344]

Christians aren't allowed to eat shellfish, drink alcohol, have tattoos, sleep with their wife during her period, women must cover their hair in public. Even if today's christianity ignores these things to persecute abortion and gays instead, you MUST follow all these rules. I don't see anyone asking for a bunch of "did he eat shellfish" snooping schemes and "is that underwear made of mixed fibers?" snooping.

How accurate does it need to be? Please, study the 800-1100 AD history of arab wine poetry and you will see that "Muslims are X" is just branding. Muslims are people, and all religions have too many rules to follow anyway, and people just do what they want anyway - especially in a religion that gives you an "out". Christians have no moral cause, their sins are pre-forgiven so might as well not waste the uh, credit card limit on that salvation thing. A muslim merely need die in battle against enemies of Islam to have their million virgins in heaven even if they spent a life of wearing gold, smoking tobacco, drinking wine, fornicating, and consorting with witches. Not to mention "this isn't gay it's just that men are for fun".

I will agree that the art style for somne things, and localization + flavorization could use some work.

You can make your point without being an edgy Reddit atheist and people may even be more accepting of it!

 

[EphemeralToast]

I dunno, Omar Khayyam seemed pretty fond of wine. Although I guess he is also the guy who said "I can quote the Koran too, the unbeliever knows his Koran best," lol

There is a lot of work still to be done to localize many of the events in the game. I'll never forget playing a devout Hindu ruler who decided to chop up his new herd of cows for leather and nobody around me cared in the slightest.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Here is a reddit thread about whether the nomadic people stopped drinking alcohol after converting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2vkhhw/when_the_turks_mongols_and_other_steppe_societies

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Muslims elites now and especially during the medieval period drank alcohol quite a bit. Only the most pious would abstain, just like how many Christian rulers had a ton of side chicks and concubines unofficially.

Theres currently no penalty for drinking, unlike every bastard dropping your level of devotion by 1 and the pope asking you to end concubinage

Christians aren't allowed to eat shellfish, drink alcohol, have tattoos, sleep with their wife during her period, women must cover their hair in public.

Church councils had already ruled that shellfish could be eaten just as pig could be. Drunkness was a sin, hence why drunkard lowers piety in game, and is listed as a sin, but the mere act of drinking alcohol wasn't, otherwise monasteries would make little money on all the wine they made.

Even if today's christianity ignores these things to persecute abortion and gays instead, you MUST follow all these rules. I don't see anyone asking for a bunch of "did he eat shellfish" snooping schemes and "is that underwear made of mixed fibers?" snooping.

wearing mixed fibers wasn't a sin to medieval Christianity, but wearing sack cloth was a virtue for penitents

How accurate does it need to be? Please, study the 800-1100 AD history of arab wine poetry and you will see that "Muslims are X" is just branding. Muslims are people, and all religions have too many rules to follow anyway, and people just do what they want anyway - especially in a religion that gives you an "out".

Breaking the rules should change how your realm sees you, otherwise the rules dont really exist to be broken.

Christians have no moral cause, their sins are pre-forgiven so might as well not waste the uh, credit card limit on that salvation thing.

? Which contemporary denomination do you think has pre forgiven sin, rather than confession and penance being required for entry to purgatory?

A muslim merely need die in battle against enemies of Islam to have their million virgins in heaven even if they spent a life of wearing gold, smoking tobacco, drinking wine, fornicating, and consorting with witches.

What section of islam bars wearing gold? Smoking tobacco was approved given muhammad couldnt condemn it.

Not to mention "this isn't gay it's just that men are for fun".

I will agree that the art style for somne things, and localization + flavorization could use some wwork

Muhammad himself possibly engaging in pederastery gives it a veneer of credibility

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Let's focus on the game rather than IRL religious debates please.

 

[Greg2344]

Theres currently no penalty for drinking, unlike every bastard dropping your level of devotion by 1 and the pope asking you to end concubinage

drinking was accepted and the norm for Muslim rulers, and although Christian rulers had concubines at times, it was not approved of and looked down upon. Drinking for Muslims rulers was not nearly as taboo as a Christian ruler having mistresses, drinking for Muslim rulers was generally seen as pretty normal and alright, no one really cared.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

drinking was accepted and the norm for Muslim rulers, and although Christian rulers had concubines at times, it was not approved of and looked down upon. Drinking for Muslims rulers was not nearly as taboo as a Christian ruler having mistresses, drinking for Muslim rulers was generally seen as pretty normal and alright, no one really cared.

Back to the topic at hand, I think a reasonable case could be made to edit out alcoholic beverages in feasts held by Muslim rulers. Yes, the rules against alcohol weren't necessarily rigorously enforced. But I think a good argument can be made that a public event like a feast involving some of the most important men of the realm, a ruler might be less likely to serve and consume alcohol than they would in private. Unless their zealous level was below -25, in which case they probably do not care too much about the appearance of piety. For cultures that have it cultural engrained in certain alcoholic beverages, such as fermented mare's milk, rulers might ignore the prohibition against alcohol during feasts unless they were a fundamentalist.

 

[Rex Hiemis]

Christians aren't allowed to eat shellfish, drink alcohol, have tattoos, sleep with their wife during her period, women must cover their hair in public. Even if today's christianity ignores these things to persecute abortion and gays instead, you MUST follow all these rules. I don't see anyone asking for a bunch of "did he eat shellfish" snooping schemes and "is that underwear made of mixed fibers?" snooping.

How accurate does it need to be? Please, study the 800-1100 AD history of arab wine poetry and you will see that "Muslims are X" is just branding. Muslims are people, and all religions have too many rules to follow anyway, and people just do what they want anyway - especially in a religion that gives you an "out". Christians have no moral cause, their sins are pre-forgiven so might as well not waste the uh, credit card limit on that salvation thing. A muslim merely need die in battle against enemies of Islam to have their million virgins in heaven even if they spent a life of wearing gold, smoking tobacco, drinking wine, fornicating, and consorting with witches. Not to mention "this isn't gay it's just that men are for fun".

I will agree that the art style for somne things, and localization + flavorization could use some work.

I think you may have missed my point. In the wine poetry genre, the wine is not literal, it’s a metaphor, usually for divine love. I know that in pre-Islamic examples it literally meant wine, but that changed with Islam. What I’m suggesting is that Paradox should at least give each culture and faith its own distinct mechanics, rather than relying on generic events that feel rooted in medieval Catholic Europe. I'm not here to debate religion.

I dunno, Omar Khayyam seemed pretty fond of wine. Although I guess he is also the guy who said "I can quote the Koran too, the unbeliever knows his Koran best," lol

There is a lot of work still to be done to localize many of the events in the game. I'll never forget playing a devout Hindu ruler who decided to chop up his new herd of cows for leather and nobody around me cared in the slightest.

Omar Khayyam is a controversial figure, and his faith remains a subject of scholarly debate. His writings suggest that he either held an unorthodox understanding of Islam or was a Muslim in name only.

Here is a reddit thread about whether the nomadic people stopped drinking alcohol after converting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2vkhhw/when_the_turks_mongols_and_other_steppe_societies

I agree that nomadic peoples continued to drink, and they tended to do so. I can’t recall which Muslim historian mentioned it, but one noted that the Oghuz Turks continued to consume alcohol. That said, later there were also rulers among them who refrained from drinking or even banned alcohol entirely.

Back to the topic at hand, I think a reasonable case could be made to edit out alcoholic beverages in feasts held by Muslim rulers. Yes, the rules against alcohol weren't necessarily rigorously enforced. But I think a good argument can be made that a public event like a feast involving some of the most important men of the realm, a ruler might be less likely to serve and consume alcohol than they would in private. Unless their zealous level was below -25, in which case they probably do not care too much about the appearance of piety. For cultures that have it cultural engrained in certain alcoholic beverages, such as fermented mare's milk, rulers might ignore the prohibition against alcohol during feasts unless they were a fundamentalist.

I agree. This actually reminds me of Medieval Total War II, where in the victory cutscenes, Europeans celebrate with alcohol, while in the Muslim ones, they call for "sherbet." It's a small detail, but it reflects an effort.

 

[vyshan]

Lets talk religion actually had a video covering this exact topic in regards to early islamic history.

that said I am always in favor of more regional flavor, and foods and drinks more suited for the cultures, religion, time, etc.

 

[ourg]

For example, tavern events appear as if drinking alcohol isn’t forbidden in Islam.

It was not really forbidden during middle age

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Lets talk religion actually had a video covering this exact topic in regards to early islamic history.

that said I am always in favor of more regional flavor, and foods and drinks more suited for the cultures, religion, time, etc.

So in summary of his video, we could have all references to grape wine, getting drunk, and from the 1100s (36 years after the 1066 start) all alcohol removed for pious non-esoteric rulers. We could also have it just removed in general, given we just have ashari as the religion in game, rather than maliki, hanafi, and hanbali. With an option to serve wine at feasts but levelling up the drunkard trait, and drunkard having even more maluses to islam than other religions where its a sin.

 

[Ispil]

I won't really delve into the mechanical implications, but if you want something more authoritative on the topic, I suggest reading Angels Tapping at the Wine-shop's Door. Covers exactly this topic.