In what way will the income of the religious orders (Crusader Knights + Pope) be determined? Just by a large taxincome in their capital, by events or by an entirely new structure?
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I don't think we'll be able to play them being (unless you're a Borgia) not a dynasty. If this is the case I think it might be quite arbitrary
You were supposed to be able to control them, but not play them, and since control might be limited to moving their armies it will not really be important how they are paid for, only that they are.
Well didn´t those orders rely on much of their income from large estates? I cannot recall them having direct taxation rights.
That and I think they were financed directly from the Church and other nattions at the start, anyway. Once the holy orders were better established, things kind of snowballed monetarily and they started making income from the lands they directly controlled and the numerous private donations as they incorporated new, well-connected members. Eventually, the Templars became the largest banking operation in Christendom, IIRC, a fact which is thought to be the true cause for their destruction
That brings up another question: will the banking function of these orders be replicated in the game?
I thought the Crusader Orders were playable, but that seems to be a mistake in the overview of CK.
See the FAQ at: http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34142
That concludes that then
See the FAQ at: http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34142
That concludes that then
unmerged(2920)
Dark Surcouf ne meurt jamais
Originally posted by PBI
That and I think they were financed directly from the Church and other nattions at the start, anyway. Once the holy orders were better established, things kind of snowballed monetarily and they started making income from the lands they directly controlled and the numerous private donations as they incorporated new, well-connected members. Eventually, the Templars became the largest banking operation in Christendom, IIRC, a fact which is thought to be the true cause for their destruction
That brings up another question: will the banking function of these orders be replicated in the game?
no the pope did not gave money at all to them (more the contrary) and they did not relly on states except at the very beginning of those orders, after they quicly had very big gift of land, castle,.... enought to support them.
and for the templar they where not big banker, at least not bigger than the hospitallers. and they where nothing compared to the italians banker (medicis, grimaldi....), they some times had to borrow to those banker to give money to those who borrowed them. they still had a large activity of banker but as i said not bigger than the one of the hospitallers, they just where more known for that because they administrated the treasure of the french crown (but still the french money and the templar money where separted).
Ok, now we know what they didn´t get their money from. I assume they weren´t just conjured up but rather came from somewhere?
Oh but didn't you know? The true reason for the templars being shut down was because they conjured their money in league with the devil
And also the king realized he could get the dark lords money without dealing with the devil, all he had to do was burn some people at the stake..
unmerged(2920)
Dark Surcouf ne meurt jamais
unmerged(2920)
Dark Surcouf ne meurt jamais
the orders like the templar get most of their income from their land in the west europe, mostly france for the templar and the hospitalers, germany for the teutonics england fot st thomas,...
this is the reason of their success and also one reason of their loss of power after the fall of acre in 1291
the land in the west assure them income for the holy land. also they do banking operation (i never said they they did not i just said that they where small bankers compared to the italian bankers (grimaldi, the brothers Guidi dei Franzesi,...)) but mostly transport of money operation (don't know the name in english, they take the money in france, send a message in the holy land and the money is delivered there without being transported which would be risqued.
but when acre fall in 1291 the people in western europe just see that the orders don't have to protect anymore the holy land and more than that they failed to keep it but they still get money from their domain in europe. this began to give them a bad reputation.
the templar had especially a bad one since they where in charge of the french treasure.
another reason of what had been a fatal thing for the templar is that in 1306 (6 june) a concile gave the option of the fusion of all the religious order. to this Phillipe the king of france is definitely opposed, for him the order (which is mostly french) should be under the law of the french crown and no more under the pope's, he should serve his interest. to this the pope resisted but agreed not to make a fusion of the orders. which did not pleased phillipe.
last thing there is definitely the money question but it is just a part of all the reasons, not the only one
this is the reason of their success and also one reason of their loss of power after the fall of acre in 1291
the land in the west assure them income for the holy land. also they do banking operation (i never said they they did not i just said that they where small bankers compared to the italian bankers (grimaldi, the brothers Guidi dei Franzesi,...)) but mostly transport of money operation (don't know the name in english, they take the money in france, send a message in the holy land and the money is delivered there without being transported which would be risqued.
but when acre fall in 1291 the people in western europe just see that the orders don't have to protect anymore the holy land and more than that they failed to keep it but they still get money from their domain in europe. this began to give them a bad reputation.
the templar had especially a bad one since they where in charge of the french treasure.
another reason of what had been a fatal thing for the templar is that in 1306 (6 june) a concile gave the option of the fusion of all the religious order. to this Phillipe the king of france is definitely opposed, for him the order (which is mostly french) should be under the law of the french crown and no more under the pope's, he should serve his interest. to this the pope resisted but agreed not to make a fusion of the orders. which did not pleased phillipe.
last thing there is definitely the money question but it is just a part of all the reasons, not the only one
Originally posted by Surcouf
i fear my english is not good enought to understand what you said
sorry
What I meant was that they didn´t magically made the money appear themselves.
Btw first Johan now you. Wheel of Time fans seems to appear everywhere.
OK, so the militairy orders got their money from banking, estates in Western Europe and the Pope. But how should all this be modelled in the game?
Yeah, how? Is it depends on the relationship between the order and the nation determine how they will loan u, I mean if +200, you will get the gift but -200, u will never get the loan ever.
unmerged(2920)
Dark Surcouf ne meurt jamais
i already said it they get there money at 90% from western estates, 10% from banking (remember that banking comme quite late in the life of all the orders) and NOTHING from the pope. it is more them who give money to the pope than the reverse. the pope did not contribute to the orders (or so few that it does not deserve to be noticed)
unmerged(2920)
Dark Surcouf ne meurt jamais
yes they didn't make the money appear, this money come mostly from theyr estates. most of those estates where not bought by those orders but where given to them by family, kings,.... as a faith gift, this is where the money come from in the first place.
and for the WoT it is a long time that i am a fan of it i just changed my title when i saw the title of johan (couldn't resist) and after all the nae'blis deserve a car a carn to oppose him
Well then what was the fuss about anyhow? I wasn´t to far of in my initial post then.
I think they obtained funds from estates much
like any large landholder:
tenant farming where the farmer paid both in cash and in product for lease of the land. The products were sold at market for cash and the farmers probably paid small cash amounts directly as well.
Some portion of the states may well have been "let out" to other large landholders who parcelled the land to tenants that paid cirectly to the large landowner who then paid the Templars a fixed rate for lease of the land.
Of course state ownership also varied as value. Not all was for farming. Some may have been hunting and hunting was strictly licensed. Some may have been for access to water or lumber from the forested estates.
The ides is that estate ownership translated into many different ways to generate funds for the owner, if the demand for land use was there. Sometimes land lay fallow and unused, returning nothing to the estate owner. Certainly, lands where there was violence as in war would lie fallow or even be damaged by fire and made useless or less productive.
like any large landholder:
tenant farming where the farmer paid both in cash and in product for lease of the land. The products were sold at market for cash and the farmers probably paid small cash amounts directly as well.
Some portion of the states may well have been "let out" to other large landholders who parcelled the land to tenants that paid cirectly to the large landowner who then paid the Templars a fixed rate for lease of the land.
Of course state ownership also varied as value. Not all was for farming. Some may have been hunting and hunting was strictly licensed. Some may have been for access to water or lumber from the forested estates.
The ides is that estate ownership translated into many different ways to generate funds for the owner, if the demand for land use was there. Sometimes land lay fallow and unused, returning nothing to the estate owner. Certainly, lands where there was violence as in war would lie fallow or even be damaged by fire and made useless or less productive.