Infantry MG squads.

[OriginalCanadian]

As some of you may know, German infantry doctrine focused around using the two man MG team as a support/base of fire with the rifles being used to assault positions.

The MG was intended to be the main killer in infantry squads and pretty much every german squad had an MG team attached/part of the squad. Most of the time the best shots were assigned to an MG.

My question is how will this be represented?

One way I can see to correctly simulate this would be to have every infantry squad called in come with a "free" 2 man MG squad.

One can also hope that orders have been updated allowing us to order units to follow one another/attach units together.

Anyone have other thoughts on this?

 

[RoyalColor]

It will be probably the way every other war game has it. You get your regular squad (1xMP-40, 1xMG34/42 SAW, 6xkar98) And separate 6 man strong MG-34/42 HMG Squad

 

[UltimateIdiot]

Which is how it should be, otherwise it becomes a micro-hell to manage each squads separate MG-team in an attack, if you have multiple squads of infantry up, plus heavy machineguns, plus mortars, any vehicles, so on and so forth.

There's also the fact that the LMG wouldn't stay too far behind the rest of the squad, as they would move in turns, one covering the other, so there's no point for a separate group. This can just as well be modeled by one squad covering the advance of a second one.

The German infantry weren't anything special with their MG's. Everyone else had a LMG to provide covering fire as well. The MG34/42 were just better at that.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

eh.......

By the look's of the detail of the maps, I'm kind of hoping they go with a core infantry squad that may not even include an MG for ze Germans, but stuff like Bren and BAR for Allies. Then give two man teams and one man snipers. I just kind of feel like with the text about snipers in towers, and the addition of standalone MG teams that we'll be able to get a lot more micro in placing units in specific buildings and even maybe floors/windows.

 

[Destraex]

Nope. Considering every German infantry squad was built around the MG at it's core. It must be thus for the germans. However the Brits and Yanks had the much lighter weapons like the Bren and ww1 BAR. However the yanks get their firepower back through all the semi-auto rifles they had. THe Brits therefore being the least, powerful on a weight of firepower basis.

 

[Graphic]

 

[Killertomato]

I hope the US and Britain get rifle squads that have rifles and ARs (BAR or Bren) and separate squads that have M1919s/Vickers MGs, while German squads get Kar98ks and an MG-42.

Separate assault squads can get SMGs, we can have AT squads with heavy AT weapons (Bazooka, PIAT, Panzerschreck).

 

[OriginalCanadian]

Nope. Considering every German infantry squad was built around the MG at it's core. It must be thus for the germans. However the Brits and Yanks had the much lighter weapons like the Bren and ww1 BAR. However the yanks get their firepower back through all the semi-auto rifles they had. THe Brits therefore being the least, powerful on a weight of firepower basis.

Thats what I am saying. Currently, the engine it runs on does not support only part of an infantry squad going forward. So I was suggesting that all regular german squads come with a free 2 man mg squad so you can use them more effectively.

 

[Bersercker]

Which is how it should be, otherwise it becomes a micro-hell to manage each squads separate MG-team in an attack, if you have multiple squads of infantry up, plus heavy machineguns, plus mortars, any vehicles, so on and so forth.

There's also the fact that the LMG wouldn't stay too far behind the rest of the squad, as they would move in turns, one covering the other, so there's no point for a separate group. This can just as well be modeled by one squad covering the advance of a second one.

The German infantry weren't anything special with their MG's. Everyone else had a LMG to provide covering fire as well. The MG34/42 were just better at that.

Well, considering there are dedicated squads with grenade launchers, recoilless rifes with HE rounds, etc. in wargame and it isn't a micro-hell to use them it should be fine. Heavy mgs are not that much different.

 

[UltimateIdiot]

Heavy MG's are fine, they're a support element and not useful enough on their own to be spammable.

I meant the OP's idea of an infantry squad coming in two sections, rifle section and LMG section. So six infantry squads means you've six rifle sections to maneuver, six LMG sections to maneuver, plus any heavy machineguns, mortars, snipers, jeeps, tanks, etc. you may have. So it quickly starts getting cluttered.

In Wargame, that's not what the OP had in mind. Think of it like having a FIST squad with every squad of line infantry you order, and having to operate that independently for each and every squad. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it can get difficult in a large battle.

Or play MoW:AS and you see what I mean. Separate the LMG's from the infantry and use them as a two- or three-man support section - yeah, it's fine for a while, but you quickly start losing track of them when you have more troops.

 

[Ragga]

This is interesting...

The MoW model is fun because you have more control of your units (even if they do not allow for individual unit placement - like CoH)

The WG model would be much easier and allow focus to be on other aspects of the game...

Both are good in their own right, but do come with flaws; for the former, unless the scale of the battles is smaller than WG, the micro would be almost too intense. As for the latter, WG infantry sorta do not do much after their initial placement and therefore become less important as the battle ensues (this would be wrong considering how critical infantry was in WWII)

 

[Karlburg]

I kinda hope they can capture the way mechanized troops had more machine guns available to them- the US armored rifle platoon had a lot more MGs available than pretty much any other rifle platoon.

 

[neverlay]

the MG42's should be part of the core squad, because combat training based almost all defensive and offensive fire on the MG (unlike the British, who focused basic training on rifles).German Soldiers apparently were trained that the squad existed to 'protect the MG team and assault the enemy'. According to various combat memoirs (including the excellent 19 Platoon) conclude that once the MG42 was pinned down or destroyed, the rest of the squad would high-tail it, which requires for the MG to really be part of the main for squad for that to be represented..
Tripod Spandau's should be more accurate and effective at suppression that their bipod counterparts.

I kinda hope they can capture the way mechanized troops had more machine guns available to them- the US armored rifle platoon had a lot more MGs available than pretty much any other rifle platoon.

German Panzergrenadiers and Airborne troops had too MG42's per squad. What fun!

 

[Solty]

Most standard German units (such as Grenadiere) should have 12 men 1x Squad Leader with MP40 or K98k and 10 men with K98k and 1x MG34 or MG42.

If you take Panzergrenadiere they should get 1 more MG. So 1xMP40 10xK98k and 2x MG34/42.

Things get more complicated with Fuisliers and Volksgrenadiere units. Which would have more MP40 and StG44s in their arsenal but less men (9 per squad).

G41 and 43 should be a very rare weapon. Possibly more common for Gebirgsjäger and Fallschirmjäger (at least thats what I've read some time ago, and don't even know if that was the case), but their weapons would also be dominated by K98k.


And yes, the German infantry squad is based around its MG. Its the most important part of that squad. Compared to the US which has 12 Men 1x SL M1 Thompson/M1 Carabine/ M1 Garand/M3 Grease gun, 11 Men with M1 Garand (sometimes some with M1 Carabine, although that was usually typical for Rangers, Airborne and non-combat troops such as arty crews, truck drivers etc. ) and 2x M1918 BAR. Completely different approach and thats what makes them unique in tactics and behaviour on the front line. British units might be the lower end in weapons with just Bren as the support and some Sten and No. 4 Lee-Enfields.

1943 US squad would be similar but with one less BAR and a Springfield M1903 rifle as the more precise rifleman of the squad.

 

[Scottfitzz]

The Typical British Rifle Section of the Era was 10 Men Strong and built around Two Groups; the Assault / Rifle Group and the Gun Group. The Assault Group / Rifle Group had One Section Commander (Corporal) armed with a STEN Mk. II or Mk. III Machine Carbine (Submachine Gun) and Six Riflemen Carrying a No. 4 Mark I or Mark I* Lee Enfeild. The Gun Group was Comprised of a Second in Command (Lance Corporal) armed with a No. 4 Rifle, a No. 1 with the BREN Mark I or Mark II Light Machine Gun and a No. 2 with a No. 4 Rifle. Towards the end of the War the British Army wanted One BREN Gun per 4 Men and they also Released the BREN Guns from the AA Units thus allowing for 2 BREN Guns in the Gun Group towards the end of the War. The Gun Group in that would require a extra Two Men ontop the 3 Men in the Gun Group.

(Platoon HQ Usually had a 2 Inch Mortar)
(PIATs were normally attached from Company Stocks)

 

[blackwolf23]

Probably will be like the fire support teams in wg3. 5 man squad 4 rifles plus the 50cal/mg42... I only hope they have somewhat of a deployment time which they lacked in wg3. Always found it funny how a recoilless riffle team could fire 1 millisecond after getting inside a building. the deployment time could also make CQB interesting and not a spam more mgs deal.

 

[Bersercker]

As for the latter, WG infantry sorta do not do much after their initial placement and therefore become less important as the battle ensues (this would be wrong considering how critical infantry was in WWII)

Thats certainly not how it works in red dragon now. Attacking a town or a forest without infantry is a sure way to lose everything and not kill much. I guess the infantry was not as important in european escalation?