Initial queue IC costs updates after 1 hour of gametime

[tingo]

Hi, I have just bought AoD today after a long time playing HoI2. Everything goes OK until I remove the pause to start the game. Then, as the first hour passes, all IC costs of the units in the initial production queue change from the (lower) initial costs to the (quite higher) usual costs, as if you started the production of all these units manually in that moment.

It is very annoying since for example, for the 1939 scenario the USSR production needs raises from 49.5 to 340.12 in just one hour! :blink::sad:

It happens with all countries and scenarios, and both with the 1.05 and 1.08 versions.

Is this a bug or simply AoD removes the initial queue IC costs of HoI2? If it is a bug, is there any way to fix it??

 

[Pang Bingxun]

The building ic and building time updates every hour to adjust to different slider settings etc.. This is WAD. What in theory could be changed is the costs written in the scenerio files or the update could also appear whenever loading a game.

 

[tingo]

Following the example with the 1939 scenario and the USSR, what I mean is that at 0:00 September 1 1939, the units and their IC costs on the (initial) production queque reflects the units and costs written in the scenario file 1939/sov.inc, but all these queued units costs change at 1:00 September 1 1939 (raising to the usual IC costs of manually ordered units) WITHOUT ANY ACTION FROM MY PART.

This didn't happen in HoI2.

Does it also happen to you in AoD?

These images show the changes I refer to:

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Following the example with the 1939 scenario and the USSR, what I mean is that at 0:00 September 1 1939, the units and their IC costs on the (initial) production queque reflects the units and costs written in the scenario file 1939/sov.inc, but all these queued units costs change at 1:00 September 1 1939 (raising to the usual IC costs of manually ordered units) WITHOUT ANY ACTION FROM MY PART.

I am aware of that. You did however let time pass and you could have edited the savegame to new slider settings. In general i recommend the 1936 gc, there those issues are far less relevant.

 

[tingo]

Pang, thanks for your replies, but I don't understand how the slider settings could be changed as I do nothing but just let the time pass. Anyway, does this same issue happen to you?

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Of course it does. The updates happen every hour. If the old ic or the old days donnot match the current ic and days, then it is corrected. There is no discrimation why the old figures did not match. It also applies to ministers with the standard 60 days delay and it applies to building brigaded divisions. In order to get correct figures one hour needs to pass.

 

[tingo]

OK, I get that, but scenarios indeed have an initial queue defined in the include file for each country, with smaller IC costs, so a more realistic historical buildup of each country's army is attained. In fact, in the AoD manual you can read:

"At the beginning of some games, you may discover that there are some items already in the queue and that they require no IC allocation. This is completely normal and is because they have been “prepaid” for you as a special bonus in the scenario’s design."

So even if these prepaid items in the initial queue are supposed to stay with their reduced IC cost, the game engine updates them to the usual costs. This is what I am pointing to. I think this should not happen since then why to define initial queues for the scenarios? Moreover, this issue does not happen in HoI2, where the initial queue is developed without problems. To some extent, in a 1939 scenario this issue somehow ruins the game experience as the buildup of the armies is much slower, avoiding to at least approximately match the historical developments.

Anyway, what more concerns me is whether this issue happens only in my computer or it is the same for everybody. Can you please check whether this happen also to you or not?

 

[Pang Bingxun]

So even if these prepaid items in the initial queue are supposed to stay with their reduced IC cost, the game engine updates them to the usual costs. This is what I am pointing to.

Prepaid only means, that "total progress" is greater than zero(for Graf Spee it is greater than 90%), also retooling is paid of. It is not meant to mean that additional units of a line get an extra discount of 80% or so.

Anyway, what more concerns me is whether this issue happens only in my computer or it is the same for everybody. Can you please check whether this happen also to you or not?

It happens the same for all. That it happen is a feature, that it does not happen immediatly when loading a campaign might be considered a (minor) bug.

 

[tingo]

OK, thanks, now I can relax a bit knowing it happens to everybody.

Anyway, I am not agreeing with you in that this issue is not a bug. If it is as you say, then why scenarios have a preconfigured, initial queue for each country with reduced IC costs? I mean, these prepaid items are supposed to cost less IC than usual for some reason. Of course, any additional item you introduce in the queue after the scenario is loaded must be paid at the usual cost. But the game engine should be able to distinguish whether a queued item is a prepaid one, with its IC cost and completion time given by the scenario configuration file, or a manually-introduced item with its usual costs. This is at least what happens in HoI2, and it has more sense to me than admiting that the IC cost specifications at the initial queues in the scenario configuration files have no real purpose.

Moreover, if you reread the text of the manual I cited, you will see that it refers to "IC allocation" rather than to "total progress".

That is, I consider the game correctly loads the configuration file for the scenarios, defining an initial queue with the specified items as well as with their predefined progress and IC cost. And my opinion is that AoD mistakenly updates the IC cost of these prepaid items (but not their "total progress" as you correctly point out) as they are not further considered as prepaid items but usual items in the production queue. Let me insist in that HoI2 proceeds the other way, so the specifications of the initial queue are maintained while new items introduced after the game starts are paid at the usual cost (both in IC and time).

At this respect, I think HoI2 way of doing is more flexible and allows a more realistic configuration of the historical buildup of the armies. I hope this issue can be corrected for the 1.09 version. Meanwhile, I will probably get your tip and play a 1936 campaign rather than a 1939 one.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

If it is as you say, then why scenarios have a preconfigured, initial queue for each country with reduced IC costs? I mean, these prepaid items are supposed to cost less IC than usual for some reason.

The reason is simply that they have not been updated. Not ic should be reduced, only icd. And that is the case.

Moreover, if you reread the text of the manual I cited, you will see that it refers to "IC allocation" rather than to "total progress".

The manual is seriosly outdated and thus flawed.

Of course, any additional item you introduce in the queue after the scenario is loaded must be paid at the usual cost.

IIRC HoI2 could not distinguish them either. If so, then the AoD solution is the lesser evil.

I hope this issue can be corrected for the 1.09 version. Meanwhile, I will probably get your tip and play a 1936 campaign rather than a 1939 one.

For 1.09 the issue has been corrected for the 1936 campaign only. It might however still require one hour time to pass to get the days of infra correct because of the terrain modifier for infra build time.

 

[tingo]

OK, I can agree with you in that reducing ICD through a shorter completion time is perhaps more realistic than directly reducing IC cost. But then the IC cost specification of prepaid units at the scenario configuration files is rendered useless. I feel this to be somehow weird, and to some extent it reduces flexibility in the configuration of scenarios.

Moreover, it introduces a big change in AoD post-1936 campaigns with respect to the same campaigns in HoI2, since the difference in ICD to be spent to complete all the prepaid items is in some cases huge, as for example with the 1939 USSR. In this sense, to some extent I consider the HoI2 setting more historically realistic as it allows building the real, historical USSR armies on time, while in AoD this is nearly impossible. Either initial queue IC costs should be maintained or the completion times drastically reduced in order to allow matching the historical facts.

In the case of 1939 USSR, as it is even reflected on the sov.inc file of the 1939 scenario, the sovs were joining and upgrading their many already-existing tank brigades into some tank divisions. This indeed brings a reason on why the IC cost for these prepaid units could be lower than usual, as joining some tank brigades into a single division should not consume as much IC as building such division from scratch. By the way, I am quite sure that HoI2 distinguished between prepaid and manually introduced items, the former maintaining their configuration file IC costs while the latter being paid at the usual cost.

Finally, I have compared the sov.inc files of the 1939 campaign of both HoI2 and AoD. The latter has been in fact updated in many points, even in the specification of some items of the initial queue, but curiously no changes have been introduced regarding their IC costs or completion times. This fact, together with the historical aspects I mentioned, is what makes me think that this updating-of-initial-IC-cost issue I am pointing to is a bug and not a normal feature, or at least that some further work should be devoted to update the configuration file of the scenarios to better match historical facts.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

By the way, I am quite sure that HoI2 distinguished between prepaid and manually introduced items, the former maintaining their configuration file IC costs while the latter being paid at the usual cost.

Well, it distingusihed, but increasing the lenght would create additional units at lower icd/per units than possible via regular means. Afaik increasing lenght of serials is new in AoD compared to Doomsday. So things need to adapt to this possibility.

OK, I can agree with you in that reducing ICD through a shorter completion time is perhaps more realistic than directly reducing IC cost. But then the IC cost specification of prepaid units at the scenario configuration files is rendered useless. I feel this to be somehow weird, and to some extent it reduces flexibility in the configuration of scenarios.

Well, it reduced to possibilities of the scenerio to what is possible by regular means of gameplay. Giving nations something in the starting building queue that cannot be built by regular means would be somewhat strange.

 

[tingo]

Yeah, I suppose it is understandable taking into account these new features of serials in AoD. However, maybe these initial prepaid lines could be caped someway to avoid overexploiting them, though it could be easier to just update the scenarios configuration files to better match the historical buildup of the armies. Anyway, I think the problem with me is that I am too used to play these campaigns in HoI2, where the intial costs of prepaid units are respected, so I felt a little confused as this issue of AoD makes it impossible to just repeat the steps I use to apply in HoI2. Particularly, I loved to play with the USSR the 1939 campaign, and though I realize that some features of AoD really improve some game's functionalities in relation with HoI2, I just felt a bit dissapointed as some historical issues are not practically implementable in this specific AoD's campaign, which I consider to be somehow more realistic at this respect in HoI2.

So OK, I understand this issue actually could be not a bug but just a necessary consequence of some of the enhacements AoD enables, but anyway I would like it to be fixed somehow (perhaps through updating completion times at the scenarios configuration files, or through a cap over initial lines) so this campaign I love playing so much is not affected so heavily.

Thus many thanks Pang for clearing me these aspects. I am just starting to play AoD, and I do not know if you played HoI2 intensively, but anyway don't you think the build up of armies in the 1939 campaign (particularly for the USSR) occurs a bit slowly?

 

[Pang Bingxun]

so I felt a little confused as this issue of AoD makes it impossible to just repeat the steps I use to apply in HoI2.

That would be impossible for other reasons, too. AoD introduced saleries and upgrade icd were increased by 80%.

but anyway I would like it to be fixed somehow (perhaps through updating completion times at the scenarios configuration files, or through a cap over initial lines) so this campaign I love playing so much is not affected so heavily.

As total progress is defined via the completion dates changing those dates is no option. Simply doing what i did for the 1936 campaign seems the most reasonable procedure. Still the past 1936 campaigns will be at serios disadvantage. Any rational player would build up Infra in the better place up to 200% rather soon in most circumstances. But the past 1936 campaigns are limited to 100% Infra at the start. So while AoD still contains the other campaigns only the 1936gc seems like a real option.