Interregnum Treaty of Tordesillas

[MattyG]

The Treaty of Tordesillas does not happen in Interregnum for obvious reasons.

But it is a great feature of the RW version and there is no good reason that it does not have a place in the Interregnum world. There is still a Pope, he still wants catholicism to be the one true faith, he still wants the heathens of the new worlds converted and he still wants to be able to make deals with heads of state to exercise Papal authority, even though it is already diminishing.

Now, we wouldn't want it to be as restrictive as the Treaty of Tordesillas, and we simple cannot reproduce some of its effects (the auto-capture feature, for example).

But we can have the Pope grant cores over certain regions, and this would form the basis of it.

One of the other reasons I like this idea is that it gives some advantage to staying Catholic. Currently the best reason for remaining catholic is the stability bonus (OK, but not scintillating) and the ability to be part of the 'majority' if the protestants and reformed states are not too numerous, which means cheaper DoWs and fewer potential enemies.

So, we already have the colonial files which, if you chose the MP version, grant cores both by province and - if you get enough within a certain region - for the whole of that region.

We would then overlay that with the Pope granting certain regions exclusively to a particular country. This would give you cores over that pre-definied region, and sleep the events that give the regional core based on province ownership.

Except that it wouldn't sleep them, it would just prevent a Catholic state from getting those events.

Yes, there would be a good chunk of work for me to do in upgrading all the triggers and cross-referencing the events. :wacko:

The events would trigger off the first country to find a province in one of the set regions.

Finally, these events would be shut down if Luther becomes Pope and the triggers for the colonial file events would include this condition.

Here's an example:

event = {
	id = xxxxx1
	random = no
	trigger = {

		NOT = { event = xxxxx2 } #version based on province 9
		NOT = { event = xxxxx3 } #version based on province 10
		NOT = { event = xxxxx4 } #version based on province 11

		religion = catholic
		
		NOT = { event = 464461 } #Luther became Pope
		
		OR = {
			NOT = { exists = PAP }
			relation = { country = PAP value = 50 }
		}

	        NOT = { flag = claim_calfornia } #just in case
                NOT = { continent = america }

	}
	province = 8
	name = "The First Mission to California"
	desc = "With the establishment of the first colony in the region has come the establishment of the first catholic mission there as well. Seeing the wealth that is there to be had we have petitioned the Pope to grant us the sole right to colonise the region and bring the true faith to the heathens that live there."

	action_a = {
		name = "With his blessing"
		command = { type = cash value = -100 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 8 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 9 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 10 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 11 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 1474 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 1475 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 1476 }
	     command = { type = setflag which = claim_california }
	}
}

Then, of course, the existsing events would need to be modified, as for this standard version for California

event = {
     id = 810170 
     random = no
     province = 8 
     trigger = {
	     OR = {
             	AND = {
                             owned = { province = 9 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 10 data = -1 }
             	}
             	AND = {
                             owned = { province = 1476 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 10 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 1475 data = -1 }
             	}
             	AND = {
                             owned = { province = 11 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 10 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 1475 data = -1 }
             	}
             	AND = {
                             owned = { province = 1476 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 10 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 11 data = -1 }
             	}
             	AND = {
                             owned = { province = 9 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 1474 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 1475 data = -1 }
             	}
             	AND = {
                             owned = { province = 9 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 1475 data = -1 }
                             owned = { province = 1476 data = -1 }
             	}
 	     }
	     NOT = { flag = claim_calfornia } #just in case
             NOT = { continent = america }

[B]		#New triggers
	
		OR = {
			NOT = { religion = catholic } #doesn't stop claims by prots etc
			AND = {
				NOT = { event = xxxxx1 } #none of these
				NOT = { event = xxxxx2 }
				NOT = { event = xxxxx3 }
				NOT = { event = xxxxx4 }
				religion = catholic
			}
		}[/B]
			


     }
     name = "Claim the Region of California"
     desc = "Having secured so much of the territory of the region, we are in a position to claim it all for the glory of our realm."
     date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
     offset = 1
     deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1820 }

     action_a = {
             name = "Excellent"
             command = { type = addcore which = 8 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 9 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 10 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 11 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 1474 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 1475 }
             command = { type = addcore which = 1476 }
             command = { type = vp value = 50 }
	     command = { type = setflag which = claim_california }
     }
}

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Seems like it could work... I have two queries:

1. What happens when another catholic nation colonises an area already claimed by another catholic country, having them cede is a bit too severe, maybe they should be given a choice between badboy and ceding it (or you could just do nothing)

2. On a more interesting note you could code a set of events where if a protestant nation takes a region the pope "gives" it to a catholic to conquer.

Also protestants should still be able to claim an area already claimed by catholics

 

[MattyG]

1. What happens when another catholic nation colonises an area already claimed by another catholic country, having them cede is a bit too severe, maybe they should be given a choice between badboy and ceding it (or you could just do nothing)

I think that ceding is too severe as well. I had not originally thought to have any 'follow-up' except that the catholic nation cannot, of course, claim anything in that region, although they could still colonize. But I think you are right that there needs to be more to it than that. Some retribution. Badboy is probably the way to go, but just one point, and only for players.

We also need an event should the original country lose Catholic religion to undo its effects.

2. On a more interesting note you could code a set of events where if a protestant nation takes a region the pope "gives" it to a catholic to conquer.

Hmmm. Sounds like a lot of work and is probably fairly confrontational. Did the Pope IRL ever do that?

Also protestants should still be able to claim an area already claimed by catholics

Yes, see the coding above. It only restricts Catholics from getting those cores.

 

[MattyG]

So, does anyone else have an opinion?

 

[idont]

So, if I am catholic, I have the option to pay for cores, and only if I'm early enough.
If I'm not catholic, I get the cores for free, even if somebody else got there first.
Did you say you want this to be a reason to stay catholic?

I'm not too convinced by getting badboy either.
It would presumably only be for catholics, which would just be one more reason to change religion.
Unlike with the ToT, there is no easy way for the player to see if some region is already claimed. Some players could perhaps work it out, but that would involve learning all the regions and exploring a whole region before placing colonists.

If you do want to make things easier for catholic colonizers, how about having the Pope supporting colonies in some other way? For example, once you claimed a whole region, you could get some bonus population/base tax/manpower representing people who followed the Popes call to bring civilization to the New World.
Or just give catholics more settlers.

 

[MattyG]

So, if I am catholic, I have the option to pay for cores, and only if I'm early enough.

If you are the first catholic to the region, you get to claim the whole region. Claiming a region normally happens once you have colonized a majority of the coastal and/or important provinces. Here, you need just one province.

The catholics are still normally the majority of the colonizing nations.

If I'm not catholic, I get the cores for free, even if somebody else got there first.

Well, sort of. You are still competing against the other non-Catholics, and you still only get to claim the region en masse if you claim a majority of the coastal and/or important provinces.

Did you say you want this to be a reason to stay catholic?

Well, it is some incentive. It certainly makes it easier and you blank out all the other Catholic nations: not from colonizing there, but from claiming it as a core.

I'm not too convinced by getting badboy either.
It would presumably only be for catholics, which would just be one more reason to change religion.

True. But not all colonizers get the option. Eire, Burgundy, Genoa and Sicily, for example, get no option to convert to protestant in the normal reformation cycle. And changing religion isn't such a straight-sum benefit once you have started colonizing, as full-cities are likely to remain catholic.

Unlike with the ToT, there is no easy way for the player to see if some region is already claimed. Some players could perhaps work it out, but that would involve learning all the regions and exploring a whole region before placing colonists.

Fair point. The events happen for everyone to read, but we can't expect players (and certainly the ai) to see those events. This concern in a sense already exists for the current colonial event cycles.

If you do want to make things easier for catholic colonizers, how about having the Pope supporting colonies in some other way? For example, once you claimed a whole region, you could get some bonus population/base tax/manpower representing people who followed the Popes call to bring civilization to the New World.
Or just give catholics more settlers.

The colonial events give the layer additional settlers, and for free (or cheaply) through the Emigration events, which you get if you have claimed the region.

So, the Catholic nation that claims the region via Treaty would get these free colonists. A Catholic player that also tries to colonize the region will not get these events, as they cannot claim the region. So, in a sense, this is happening.

 

[MattyG]

OK, here's a little alteration/addition.

The current colonial events include a series of Emmigration events which give the provinces in the region that you have claimed additional pop.

These events could be limited to Catholic (and Sunni, but not Mutazelite) nations.

This gives another reason for remaining catholic and paying to claim a region, as it's effectively the only way to get these free pops.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

We shouldn't forget that the treaty of tordesillas applied to the whole world, not just the unclaimed parts, if a catholic nation were to say take part of india, the pope could offer ALL of india to that nation in exchange for setting up missions there, which would lower base tax but give random chances for conversion, how about that?

 

[MattyG]

Yes, but we don't want the Treaty of Tordesillas in the same way. In the RW there were only two colonizing states at the time, their colonial worlds were already underway and they were the wealthiest of the catholic nations.

The political world of Interregnum is more fragmented, by design, and so our version of this needs to reflect the Pope's need to court the favour of all these relatively-equally powerful states.

Hence the idea that the Interregnum version would see the Pope granting regions to a country, not whole meridians.

Plus, if the Pope grants huge regions, we'd have to have ways of countries ignoring the treaty, even catholic ones, as France did.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Well okay, instead of granting all of india (as per example) you could grant part of it, say the punjab, as india is quite large, All I'm saying is that it shouldn't just be uncolonized portions of the map that should be claimable, All noncatholic lands should be claimable, as the churches primary motivation here is to spread catholicism, however the edict of tolerance should probably stop all these events, in fact maybe cores on nonchristian lands should be cancelled

 

[MattyG]

Well okay, instead of granting all of india (as per example) you could grant part of it, say the punjab, as india is quite large,

Exactly, the granting of 'regions'.

All I'm saying is that it shouldn't just be uncolonized portions of the map that should be claimable, All noncatholic lands should be claimable, as the churches primary motivation here is to spread catholicism,

OK, I can see that. That would work well.

however the edict of tolerance should probably stop all these events, in fact maybe cores on nonchristian lands should be cancelled

Well, India already has events for the gaining of cores, which are lost as soon as you own the province. This is because there is no way that the locals will believe the foreign governments have a right to rule, and cores give a bonus to manpower which is unrealistic, allowing you to raise too many troops far from home.

The long and the short of that is that for a place like India, the cores will never remain, Edict or not, it's too unbalancing.

But you are right, the effects of our 'Treaty' ought to last only until the 'Edict' triggers, or the Alternative Reformation kicks in.