Is anyone gonna talk about how the state religion of Qing appears to be Mahayana?

[TheIronRelic]

I know religion doesn't matter that much in Vic3 but this just seems really weird and honestly immersion breaking? Literally just borrowing Eu4's "Confucianism" would be better.

The idea of the religious IG in Qing being Buddhist monasteries is just weird and ahistorical.

 

[Ferrous Will]

This was brought up a couple of times, so let me repost my prior response:

Religion in East Asia was always difficult to model. If you want to be truly accurate China's religion would be Confucian-Taoist-Buddhist. Absent that Buddhist works just fine as long as you understood it as "Syncretized Mahayana", it models the fact that the nation will accommodate other forms of Mahayana just fine.

As to why Japan gets to have Shinto (they don't start with it, they need to switch into it), it's mostly because there was indeed a nationalist and state driven attempt at increasing religious cohesion. Makes sense considering the emperor's role in Japanese belief system and the whole "Revere the Emperor, expel the barbarians" (尊王攘夷) deal Japan got up to.

State Shinto might be the better name for it but that would look horrible on the map, you need to minimize the letter count, it's why Ulm is the best nation in EU.

 

[TheIronRelic]

Religion in East Asia was always difficult to model. If you want to be truly accurate China's religion would be Confucian-Taoist-Buddhist. Absent that Buddhist works just fine as long as you understood it as "Syncretized Mahayana", it models the fact that the nation will accommodate other forms of Mahayana just fine.

"If you want to be truly accurate to China's religion, you would say Confucian-Taoist-Buddhist. " This is just patently untrue and anyone unironically familiar with Qing history would scoff at the idea of Taoism or Buddhism embracing some kind of state hegemonic endorsement coequal to Confucianism, where reverence of the Buddha would be even close to the important of Confucian ritual.

I have no idea why some people like to combine the Three Teachings as a coherent and dominant orthodoxy that permeated Chinese history. The only period where this Confucian-Taoist-Buddhist idea of a state religion is even somewhat true is the Tang dynasty. But the rise of Neo-Confucianism in the Song and Ming period should firmly put any ideas of the Qing state as exhibiting "state Buddhism" into the trash bin.

To be clear, Buddhism was not disparaged by the state that much and there were many Chinese buddhists. But if you want to go by "actual practices" than Chinese Folk Religion > Buddhism and Taoism additively, so I don't think going by that definition is useful.

Honestly saying that the Qing Empire's religion should be "Confucian-Taoist-Buddhist" would be like saying that the Ottoman Empire's religion should be Sunni Islam-Orthodox Christianity (frankly, those two religions' historical origins are at least more similar to each other than Confucianism and Buddhism, even if Confucianism and Buddhism were able to coexist after Buddhism's golden age in the Tang).

If we can include Shintoism and differentiate Orthodox and Coptic Christianity then there is no reason that the Qing population needs to all be the same religious group as Sri Lanka.

 

[FranklyJustNess]

I am pretty sure we've heard in one DevDiary that the Devout of Qing have a specific ideology that makes them push for Confucian teachings, so it's not that there is no syncretism represented. Speculating here, but it likely would also include any "fixes" to the normal Devout ideas about how to run a country, they probably don't support state relgion for example.

 

[Sapa Inca]

"If you want to be truly accurate to China's religion, you would say Confucian-Taoist-Buddhist. " This is just patently untrue and anyone unironically familiar with Qing history would scoff at the idea of Taoism or Buddhism embracing some kind of state hegemonic endorsement coequal to Confucianism, where reverence of the Buddha would be even close to the important of Confucian ritual.

I have no idea why some people like to combine the Three Teachings as a coherent and dominant orthodoxy that permeated Chinese history. The only period where this Confucian-Taoist-Buddhist idea of a state religion is even somewhat true is the Tang dynasty. But the rise of Neo-Confucianism in the Song and Ming period should firmly put any ideas of the Qing state as exhibiting "state Buddhism" into the trash bin.

To be clear, Buddhism was not disparaged by the state that much and there were many Chinese buddhists. But if you want to go by "actual practices" than Chinese Folk Religion > Buddhism and Taoism additively, so I don't think going by that definition is useful.

Honestly saying that the Qing Empire's religion should be "Confucian-Taoist-Buddhist" would be like saying that the Ottoman Empire's religion should be Sunni Islam-Orthodox Christianity (frankly, those two religions' historical origins are at least more similar to each other than Confucianism and Buddhism, even if Confucianism and Buddhism were able to coexist after Buddhism's golden age in the Tang).

If we can include Shintoism and differentiate Orthodox and Coptic Christianity then there is no reason that the Qing population needs to all be the same religious group as Sri Lanka.

In your opinion, which would be the ideal way to represent religion in Qing and Ming China?

 

[TheIronRelic]

Honestly its challenging since the notion of "religion" in East Asia is different from the identity label in the west, even though conflicts over practice and doctrine were part of Chinese politics, intellectual life and state discrimination. I think I would just declare the state religion Confucianism and just have most pops who would follow Chinese folk religion be declared Confucian, with a significant Buddhist minority. Have Taoism be a leader trait/personality (maybe also a very small religion as well)? Then have Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism accepted, with Animism in the Qing referring to indigenous practices that were not super well tolerated, especially in Yunnan, with either Animism or Tengri for many steppe people, as is Paradox tradition.

Representing a relationship with Buddhism is important because of Tibet and Mongolia were governed with cooperation with the Buddhist faith.

Tl:dr, Set up the religion so China's state religion policy doesn't discriminate against Confucians/Chinese Folk Religion, Buddhism or Taosim, but does discriminate against Animists, Tengri, Islam and Christianity. Probably doable through religious groups.

 

[Sgt._Pepper]

If we can include Shintoism and differentiate Orthodox and Coptic Christianity then there is no reason that the Qing population needs to all be the same religious group as Sri Lanka.

With the religion being called Mahayana I'm pretty sure that there will also be Theravada for Sri Lanka and South East Asia. While Chinese religion always gets minimal attention, at least Buddhism has been split up in Paradox games for quite some time now.

 

[1775guy]

the problem is that the system is based on abrahamic ideas of religion, which make a lot less sense when you go to asia. I assume in some future DLC china will get a makeover which changes how their interest groups work (the whole interest group scheme looks like something designed specifically with future region-specific DLC in mind)

 

[Vityviktor]

Do we know if there's any Confuncian "religion" in the game at this point? Maybe would make more sense than Mahayana, but yeah, faiths in East Asia shouldn't probably work like that, and the same with Japan. Maybe a "nominal" state religion with highly-tolerated "eastern" faiths?

 

[Sgt._Pepper]

If we ever get a China dlc for Vic3, then considering that there most likely will be something for the Taiping in that we might finally get some work put in to have a more complex representation of beliefs in China in a paradox game.

 

[Cyhort]

Not to be that guy, but the game is called Victoria 3, not Incredibly Accurate East Asian Religions 3. All PDX games at launch give the most attention to the region they're named after. It's why playing as celts in Imperator: Rome was boring and shallow. It's why the eastern part of the map has almost no unique mechanics in Crusader Kings 3. I'm not saying that's a good practice, but you can tell where most of the effort for these games is going to go well before launch. Your best bet is to hope for some DLC and just deal with it at launch, or don't buy tyhe game.

 

[Arknav555]

Not to be that guy, but the game is called Victoria 3, not Incredibly Accurate East Asian Religions 3. All PDX games at launch give the most attention to the region they're named after. It's why playing as celts in Imperator: Rome was boring and shallow. It's why the eastern part of the map has almost no unique mechanics in Crusader Kings 3. I'm not saying that's a good practice, but you can tell where most of the effort for these games is going to go well before launch. Your best bet is to hope for some DLC and just deal with it at launch, or don't buy tyhe game.

I mean it can't be more than 10-20 lines of code to add Confucianism to the game. I don't think the "Victoria 3 is focused on Europe" argument is legitimate when Coptic Ethiopians or Shinto Japanese exist.

 

[T.j. Arnold]

In your opinion, which would be the ideal way to represent religion in Qing and Ming China?

"Ancestor Worship" is probably the closest thing I can think of that represents the "religion" of the actual Chinese people. Since very few people would directly say "I am Confucian" (that's just weird to Chinese people), "I am a Taoist!" (also weird), and the vast majority of people who would say "I'm Buddhist" are people actually wearing the robes.

But then again nobody would say, "I'm a follower of ancestor worship", even though that term describes the psuedo-religious syncretism of Buddhism-Taoism-Confucianism that most people follow.

Chinese people won't even say they're religious for the most part, even today, even though they still do somehwhat religious things regularly (you could say "religously" even), like burning money on Tomb Sweeping Day for their dead relatives.

I think the simplest and most accurate phrase for the "religion" would be having it also listed as "Chinese" as well, as I think that's as close as you'll get to a single-word description that makes sense for gameplay. Even though a lot of folk customs like the lunar new year ("Chinese New Year") are observed by mostly all East Asian peoples, having it listed as Chinese can show that it's their own syncretic version that adds in some customs from other philosophies.

 

[Heatth]

The "one religion per country/pop" will always be insufficient to represent Eastern religions. It is just not how religion historically worked in that region of the world.

But within that framing, I think the best way would be to make all the relevant religions (buddhism, taoism, confucionism, shinto and maybe Hinduism) part of the same religious group and have China and other East Asian countries start with laws that accept all of them (but not necessarily more foreign religions such as Christianism). That way you can have China be "Confucian" or something while accepting its buddhist and taoist populations. Also allows Japan to become Shinto (more accurately State Shinto) and have its brief fling with persecuting Buddhists.

 

[Delterius]

I think the simplest and most accurate phrase for the "religion" would be having it also listed as "Chinese" as well

Couldn't you in that sense just call it 'Confucianism'? From what I understand the Qing's 'state religion' is whatever is being practiced locally, only reconciled with the chinese notions of morality and social order. Which, for the most part, just means Chinese Folk Religion but also different forms of Buddhism, with Islam and Christianity often at arms length.

 

[Inzaghi09]

I think the simplest and most accurate phrase for the "religion" would be having it also listed as "Chinese" as well, as I think that's as close as you'll get to a single-word description that makes sense for gameplay.

I would say maybe we could just call it "Folkish." The kind of folkish/popular superstition practiced by the early modern Chinese was also widely present in Korea and Vietnam at that time. Calling it "Chinese" would be too limited. In fact, I may personally try to make a mod for that when the game comes out.

 

[Drakken]

If we ever get a China dlc for Vic3, then considering that there most likely will be something for the Taiping in that we might finally get some work put in to have a more complex representation of beliefs in China in a paradox game.

I Dream of Cixi: China Immersion Pack when?

 

[Jorlaan]

State Shinto might be the better name for it but that would look horrible on the map, you need to minimize the letter count, it's why Ulm is the best nation in EU.

If that's true then the greatest nation in EU is U.

 

[759578590]

Perhaps the more important thing is to get rid of the fact that every country has a state religion. Not every country has a state religion. In addition, the interest group of religious groups can also be more diversified, so that each religion in the country forms a different interest group, which will more accurately describe the social reality.

 

[Arbus]

Perhaps the more important thing is to get rid of the fact that every country has a state religion. Not every country has a state religion. In addition, the interest group of religious groups can also be more diversified, so that each religion in the country forms a different interest group, which will more accurately describe the social reality.

Not only all countries have a state religion but also all cultures have an intrinsic religion. So Han Chinese will be permanently linked to Mahayana Buddhism even if some pops follow other religions.