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unmerged(31994)

Zardishar
Jul 15, 2004
1.085
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Im really still in support of changing the balance of power from Europe torwards the East, presumably the Islamic and Chinese/Indian World.I think it would be cooler if say gunpowder, the scientific revolution and all inventions occured in the east "since this is abberated" and the situation of many states to the east is far better.What do you guys think?
 
Calipah said:
Im really still in support of changing the balance of power from Europe torwards the East, presumably the Islamic and Chinese/Indian World.I think it would be cooler if say gunpowder, the scientific revolution and all inventions occured in the east "since this is abberated" and the situation of many states to the east is far better.What do you guys think?


In principal, I am all for this. Here are my main personal preferences.

1. I would like Aberration to extend to the Rest of the World.

2. I want to see its focus remain quality multiplayer.

3. The difference between the 'east' and Europe needs to shrink somewhat.

4. The game would be better if 1, 2, and 3 can be acheived, so that MP games can include viable eastern countries/spheres, and so the experience becomes more and more intriguing for all.

5. However, Europe should remain the only country that gets the latin tech group (this includes Granada and possibly Byzantium.)

MattyG
 
I want to see a major colonising China or Japan, but not the Kaliphat since its already overpowered IMO.
 
Sekenr said:
I want to see a major colonising China or Japan, but not the Kaliphat since its already overpowered IMO.

It is and it isn't. In MP it depends on who else is in the game. If Byzantium, KoJ and Mamelukes are in play, then they will likely get ganged up on. In SP the Caliphate as ai doesn't really stand a chance again Byzantium because their endless wars in the east together with the tech difference mean that by 1520 the Romans will usually be a CRT ahead of them.

I think the Caliphate is overpowered early on and its relationship are too simple: its big and trounces all the other muslim states that are not already vassals, plus the KoJ. What I'd prefer to see is a caliphate whose set-up is a little smaller but which gets a good run of quality leadership and monarchs from about 1550.

Definitely some eastern powers should become colonisers. Probably just two, as you suggest, although I doubt that China and Japan will survive as entitles in an Aberrated east. This will, of course, require a LOT of work and is probably a LONG way off.
 
Years of Rise and Salt.

The book exists and the Eu2 mod, too.
 
Well, not a Years of Rice and Salt set up, but something were the reniassance starts in the east instead of the west, with China, India and Islam leading the forray instead of Europe,Could be an intresting experiment. dont u think?
 
Smaller and tougher Khaliphat sounds like a good idea (mostly because its so large now, its just looks unrealistic how it holds together). But islamic renaissance seems too radical to me. Maybe some kind of Islamic renaissance along with the European, and a bit later than european ? Counter-christian cultured renaissance ?
 
Calipah said:
Well, not a Years of Rice and Salt set up, but something were the reniassance starts in the east instead of the west, with China, India and Islam leading the forray instead of Europe,Could be an intresting experiment. dont u think?

It could be interesting, but it's a radical departure from the current setup. Here are some reasons not to have the East leading the way:

1. In MP games, players are likely to want to congregate in one area of the world. Strategically speaking, Europe and the Mediterranean form one of the most interesting areas because of the way land and sea fit together. Atlantic Europe is also better-placed than most of Asia to colonise the New World, which is a key dynamic even in Abe. Even in SP, there's the fact that Europe is packed with provinces, while the rest of the world gets short shrift; it's thus quite difficult to put as much detail in the rest of the world. Finally, there are some hard-coded aspects of Europe which don't happen elsewhere, such as mercenaries, though in theory these could be transplanted to Asia by renaming the continents in the province file. So I think the focus is likely to remain on Europe, at least for MP, though it will be a much weaker focus than in vanilla.

2. Many Asian countries were much more advanced than Europe in 1419, and we can represent this by giving them high starting tech. But if the East gallops even further ahead of Europe over the course of the game, we'll need to push down Europe in terms of the tech groups, and justify why in Aberrated history Europe advanced more slowly than in real life. That is, unless you want tech to be faster across the board!

3. The Renaissance and Enlightenment were principally Christian, European phenomena. There could have been surges of new thought and technology in other countries with radically different outlook, but the way in which it would happen would be very different, and not really recognisable as Eastern equivalents of what historically happened in Europe. For example, it makes little sense to have an outburst of secular thought Enlightenment-style unless the old religions have somehow been weakened or partly discredited (as early modern Christianity was by the Reformation and the continent-wide religious wars). If we want to create a whole new innovative movement, we have to think very carefully about how it would happen.

Having said this, we could make Asia a lot more competitive with Europe technologically, certainly for the first half of the game. What we could do, for example, is make Europe earn its tech advantage: it can start in a lower tech group than the advanced countries of the East (say Europe is 'Muslim' and advanced Asian countries are 'Orthodox'), then we can have events where the tech groups change as things like the Renaissance sweep through Europe, and as Europe starts getting more ideas from the East. The Muslim world, Persia, India and China OTOH could start with a high tech group, but complacent Asian empires which fail to adapt to new circumstances will get pushed down. This means that the tech game will evolve over time, and can be put at the mercy of event choices and what actually happens in-game, rather than what we think should happen.
 
Good analysis, Incompetant.

I particularly like the concept that Europe does not begin in the latin tech group, not until the reformation hits. Worth debating, at any rate.

And, yes, to be realistic, many Asian/Islamic countries need to begin with some tech scores above 1. The japanese, for example, ought sto begin with tech 3 in Landtech, to reflect their superior morale and organisation, even if their weaponry was about to start getting obsolete.

Of course, we won't have Japan, as is, but no doubt part of that Island structure will remain and have that culture.
 
Well, from what I understand in the Chinese set up, China since having many smaller states should be effected since the competition creates a situation like that of Italy.
Cordoba had been very advanced since her establishment in Iberia, and her population is most likely quite educated , not to mention they are adjacent to Europe, and many Muslims seem to send their children there (Think of some Egyptian events were the flavour has Cordoba in it) and the Khaliphate dosent have any vice not to advance, since it is situated between advanced nations and controls old areas of ME.
 
I think it may be a good thing if Asian nations begin to colonize West America before Europe. It would be more difficult (and more intersting) for European colonial powers to establish in the new world. In MP games it would make Asian players more important according to european ones. In SP games it would be more interesting to be an Asian nation.
 
Imrryran said:
I think it may be a good thing if Asian nations begin to colonize West America before Europe. It would be more difficult (and more intersting) for European colonial powers to establish in the new world. In MP games it would make Asian players more important according to european ones. In SP games it would be more interesting to be an Asian nation.

I don't think it's a matter of any negativity toward the east, but I think it too great a stretch that the Caliphate and others would have made it to the New World before western Europe. If they were going to then they would have done so when they were more advanced and organized and dominated the westernmost part of the continent. Most of them are simply too far away for it to be tenable. The cost of the early expeditions was something the crown already baulked at. And to establish colonies wherein the connections to them would be through the territory of their potential adversaries, it seems very unlikely.

In a game sense, it would also not be tenable. If the Caliphate had some colonies in the new world ahead of Europe, they simply wouldn't last. They would be unsupportable militarily, especially once the latin tech advantage kicked in.

In terms of making the americas more challenging, that is already happening through my work on a new North America. The first beta will be ready very soon (well, that's the plan, but I don't get much time for it all.)
 
MattyG said:
I don't think it's a matter of any negativity toward the east, but I think it too great a stretch that the Caliphate and others would have made it to the New World before western Europe. If they were going to then they would have done so when they were more advanced and organized and dominated the westernmost part of the continent. Most of them are simply too far away for it to be tenable. The cost of the early expeditions was something the crown already baulked at. And to establish colonies wherein the connections to them would be through the territory of their potential adversaries, it seems very unlikely.

In a game sense, it would also not be tenable. If the Caliphate had some colonies in the new world ahead of Europe, they simply wouldn't last. They would be unsupportable militarily, especially once the latin tech advantage kicked in.

In terms of making the americas more challenging, that is already happening through my work on a new North America. The first beta will be ready very soon (well, that's the plan, but I don't get much time for it all.)

Maybe not the Caliphate, but what about Far Eastern nations with a strong naval tradition, eg Korea? Colonisation across the Pacific would happen more or less independently of whatever Europe's doing. I don't know how hard it is to traverse the Pacific, but bearing in mind that much of it had been crossed by Polynesian sailors long before 1419, and the fact that in the 15th century Far Eastern ships were far more advanced than European ones, it's not too implausible to say that Chinese, Japanes, Koreans etc might eventually reach California, and do so before Europeans had crossed North America by land.
 
How about this module : Muslim Renissance in direct competition with Europe - India revives under Hindu Rule - Far Asian states colonize the new world?
 
Incompetent said:
Maybe not the Caliphate, but what about Far Eastern nations with a strong naval tradition, eg Korea?
Yes, I was not thinking about Caliphate, but Korea/Japan or Indonesian countries. Maybe Philippines if it becomes a nation.

We could even consider that these nation have already discover the coast before 1419.

A colonial competition would make Asian countries much more interessant to play.
 
The idea of Chinese/Korean-based cultures colonizing south (Australia) and west (California) has been raised in several other threads, including the North America thread and that for China. In both I have registered a strong interest in it. I think it's the way to go. The Asian countries would probably want to be arriving in about 1560 to the California are, assuming we slow things down a little with the Europeans (otherwise they will have alredy established cities of 5000 people in Alaska by then).

It will place the Dichali (formerly Navajo) slap dab between the two and make the cycle of events for the late 1700s trade war with Europe that much more interesting.