Italian Unification

[AvengerDr]

Hello there! In my last game I was playing with Sardinia-Piedmont and I was trying to unify Italy.

As soon as the military alliances that linked Austria to the central italian provinces (Tuscany, Parma, Papal States) expired, I declared war to them and annexed all of them shortly thereafter (including Rome). I then launched a surgical strike conquering Messina.. I owned all of the provinces needed to unify Italy.

But the event did not happen.. Yes I edited the "deathdate" comment in the event file for sardinia, but it didn't work either. I noticed that in order for this event to be launched another event should have been active: the collaboration between France and Sardinia.. This event did not fire.. IIRC this event lets Sardinia have some more divisions to be used to conquer the central provinces and souther ones, right? You need to have Massa, Lucca, Firenze, Roma and Messina in order to declare yourself Italy. Is this right?

Well the problem is that it did not happen in this way in real life! I made some research and these are the details:

There were 3 War of Independences:

1) Between the 18th and 22nd of March of 1848 there were the famous "Five Days of Milan" in which the population kicked the Austrian army out of the city. The 23rd of March Sardinia Declared War to Austria and marched in the already liberated city of Milan. They tried to advance but the they were eventually defeated. After this loss was defeated, Sardinia sued for peace and everything returned to the "Status Quo". This caused some revolts in the central provinces.

2) After Sardinia sent an army of 15.000 under LaMarmora's command, they made a secret pact with France.
Sardinia offered to give Nice and Savoy to France in exchange for an alliance versus Austria. Sardinia declared war to Austria and the French-Sardinian armies defeated them. The conquest of Lombardia caused a lot of revolts in the other italian provinces and this caused Napoleon to revoke their alliance and end the war. So an armistice was signed and France gave Lombardia back to Italy while Venice remained Austrian. In the central provinces the revolts continued and they asked Sardinia to annex their provinces. Sardinia then asked France if they could proceed...

In the end Sardinia annexed, Massa, Lucca, Tuscany and some of the Papal States provinces (except for Latium) and gave Nice and Savoy back to France. Garibaldi then organized the famous expedition (la "spedizione dei mille") to Sicily. He landed at Marsala and fought his way back to Naples where he defeated the King of the Two Sicilies.

3) Shortly thereafter the Kingdom of Italy was declared. You should notice that Rome, and Venice were still not Italian. Italy conquered Venice in the third war of independence (the Austria-Prussia War), and Rome after Napoleon III died. Trento remained Austrian until the first world war.

To sum things up, I think that the events should be changed to reflect something like this:

Sardinia allies itself with France and starting from 1848, france could send some divisions to Sardinia (to help the player fight the Austrian army). The arrival of these divisions could make Lombardia revolt (thus kicking the Austrian Army out of Milan). When the player conquers Lombardia, the war should end and Massa/Lucca, Tuscany, Parma and the Papal provinces (except for Latium) should join Sardinia. The player should then attack the Two sicilies.. when this kingdom is annexed, Italy is born!

It will be up to the player to get Rome and Venice....

So the chain of events is this:

-> Lombardia conquered -> Massa/Parma/Tuscany/Papal State (without Latium) join Sardinia (in exchange for Nice and Savoy if France helped)
-> Two Sicilies conquered (or just Naples) -> Italy is declared!

What do you guys think?

 

[Derek Pullem]

I think the French events are screwed. Need to fix these to make the Italian events work

 

[AvengerDr]

But even if those events did work, they were built in such a way so that the player would attack the central provinces instead of Austria. Infact Milan is not even needed to declare yourself Italy. In real life those central provinces joined Sardinia voluntarily. In my opinion, Milan is the key, the events should help the player to wage war against Austria...

 

[unmerged(15764)]

Yeup these events need to be redone or at least fixed, firstly the french events dont seem to trigger, then the sardinian events dont seem to trigger either, (I am playing a sardina gc right now and triggered the war events manually ). anyway i think they need to be looked over, unfourtunately im not a very good event fixer so there isnt much i can do anyone have a clue what is not working out?

 

[Innocent]

I have attempted to unify Italy rather intensively, and have posted a few comments about it on the general forum. Here I'd like to make my specific comments on the arrangement, and how I think it should be handled.

First:

• Problem: The events are far too difficult to predict. If a player wishes to unify Italy he should have a pretty good idea which nation he should play to do so. For the sake of history this should be Sardinia-Piedmont. Therefore the events should strongly favor Sardinia-Piedmont and only chose the Sicilies or the Papacy under unusual circumstances. As it stands a player has no idea until nearly 1850 if he shall have a chance of forming Italy as the country he chose, and most I suspect dont want to go through the time to edit saves like I have done to force the events to fire for me.
  
• Suggestion: Structure the events to favor Sardinia-Piedmont 90% of the time when Napoleon rules France and Sardinia-Piedmont is a monarchy or constitutional monarchy.

Second:

• Problem: The French events must work. I have no problem with the Italian unification events depending upon French events, since without the support of France it is unlikely that Italy could have been unified, but they must work properly. While I know that this point has been brought up dozens of times, the event triggers should favor the historical outcome. Therefore Napoleon's rise should not be dependant on the French AI chosing to become a Democracy.
  
• Suggestion: Include events for '48 in the game, the event for France should include a primary choice that creates a democracy and triggers the fall of Louis-Phillipe, while having a secondary choice that keeps the Orleanists in Power. Perhaps there should also be a tertiary chance that would establish the Bourbon Legitimists in power. Any selection should lead to revolts, but the later two moreso. This would make the rise of Napoleon dependant upon historical events, and more likely.

Third

• Problem: The Italian War of Unification is far too difficult. This problem can be partly attributed to the overpowered Austria which must be addressed in other methods, but what it boils down to is a war which Sardinia-Piedmont cannot win either as a human or AI. I dont believe the solution is to avoid the war, but simply give it a better chance of success.
  
• Solution 1: The 'Italian Question' event should trigger an event for Austria that forcefully cedes Lombardy to Italy, representing the internal revolt that took place. This puts Italy in a much better position to at least gain some territory from the war even if they ultimately lose to Austria.
  
• Solution 2: It is difficult to say that Italy ever defeated Austria during the wars of independence. The intervention of France and Prussia and the untenable nature of the Austrian position athwart the tidal wave of Italian nationalism made it only realistic that Italy would gain Lombardy in the first war, and Venice in the second regardless of the outcome on the field of battle. Therefore this could be handled via event that gave Austria two choices, the primary choice being surrending this territory and a secondary one going to war (primarily for a human player trying to buck the forces of history). I personally prefer the first alternative, but thought I would put this one forward.

Fourth

• Problem: Becoming Italy should not involve something other than it did historically. Rome should not be required, as it was the last part of Italy (outside of Venice, the Trentino, and Litorral) to actually become part of the Kingdom. It also forces a player or AI to wage two wars of total conquest against the Papacy (all but 2 provinces can be taken in the first war), delaying the eventual creation of the Kingdom of Italy by at least 5 years beyond its historical date.
  
• Solution: Remove the requirement that Rome must be part of an Italian state for it to become Italy.

Fifth

• Problem: When attempting to unify Italy the lack of cores on other Italian states causes a great deal of trouble with revolts.
  
• Solution: Have the 'Italian Question' event add cores on the rest of Italy.

This addresses most of my core concerns, though there are still other historical questions which can be asked, but I realize that Victoria is not meant to reproduce history as it happened. I also am not sure if this is the place to put most of this, as it's technically not a bug. But since this thread was discussing the matter I thought I would put my thoughts here.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Whe we have a definitive bug report i.e. one we can all agree with I'll post it Until then this thread stays open to collect opinions.

 

[unmerged(590)]

My guess is that the original event scripter goofed up when making democracy a prerequiste for the 'Fall of Louis Philippe' event to trigger. Democracy should (possibly) be an effect of the event, and not a requirement. (Quick fix is to comment out that line from the events, and maybe switch the chances for event 7208 and 7209).

It seems that the best shot to unifying Italy is playing as the Two Sicilies (I have never seen France turn into a democracy before 1845). Since you'll end up as Italy regardless (assuming someone fixes the move capital to Rome event - but that's another thread), the point would be moot, if it wasn't for the fact that it is Sardinia-Piemonte that is pre-selected at start, and not the Two Sicilies.

I agree, though, that the war against Austria is too difficult. I won with mobilizing 100 divisions, but the event coincided with an Austrian war against Russia, and France had a land border against Austria, too, so I might have been lucky (although both Russia and France signed a separate peace treaty before the end of the war) - but it did win me Lombardia (and, yes, on hardest difficulty level).

However, the same goes for all wars against a larger nation. It seems the game engine always ignores the fact that even if you were in a war, you did not want to abandon your borders, especially since you became an especially vulnerable target to aggressive neighbours.

Incidentally, you don't need to start the war in order for the Italian Unification event to trigger, choosing "The time is not right" will suffice (perhaps add a sleep_event when choosing option B? I've noticed this behaviour in a lot of events.).

 

[Lortto]

Originally posted by Innocent

Fourth

• Problem: Becoming Italy should not involve something other than it did historically. Rome should not be required, as it was the last part of Italy (outside of Venice, the Trentino, and Litorral) to actually become part of the Kingdom. It also forces a player or AI to wage two wars of total conquest against the Papacy (all but 2 provinces can be taken in the first war), delaying the eventual creation of the Kingdom of Italy by at least 5 years beyond its historical date.
  
• Solution: Remove the requirement that Rome must be part of an Italian state for it to become Italy.

You don't have to fight two wars. The Italian unification event triggers when you control the provinces. Doesn't matter who owns them. After the unification you can't make Rome your capital though if you do it this way.

Good suggestions.

 

[unmerged(13233)]

I noticed a very nasty CTD regarding the Italian Unification: I will post it here because I agree with basically everything said in this thread so far.

I was playing Sardinia-Piedmont and just waiting for this event to trigger:

#########################################################################
# Republican Collaboration*
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 7217
random = no
country = FRA

trigger = {
event = 7213
exists = SAR
constitution = { type = democracy }
constitution = { country = SAR type = democracy }
NOT = {
exists = ITA
}
random = 5
}

name = "EVT_7215_NAME"
desc = "EVT_7217_DESC"
style = 0

date = { day = 29 month = december year = 1857 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1920 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME7214A" # Propose the Mazzini Plan
command = { type = trigger which = 5801 } # SAR
command = { type = relation which = SAR value = 200 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = SIC value = -100 }
}
}

Since also the Kindgdom of Two Sicililes was a democracy I got this event instead:

#########################################################################
# Republican Collaboration*
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 7215
random = no
country = FRA

trigger = {
event = 7213
exists = SIC
constitution = { type = democracy }
constitution = { country = SIC type = democracy }
NOT = {
exists = ITA
}
random = 5
}

name = "EVT_7215_NAME"
desc = "EVT_7215_DESC"
style = 0

date = { day = 29 month = december year = 1857 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1920 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME7214A" # Propose the Mazzini Plan
command = { type = trigger which = 5900 } # SIC
command = { type = relation which = SIC value = 200 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = SAR value = -100 }
}
}

which for some reason made the game crash to desktop ( I was allied with France, and according to this event she should have declared war on me while being allied with me : that's probably why the game crashed ) .

After an half dozen of CTD's I manually triggered the event for Sardinia :wacko: and went on with my game.

IMHO the Italian unification event should trigger only for Sardinia-Piedmont : the events for the Kingdom of two Sicilies and for the Papal States should be triggered only by an human player ( i.e they shoud be alternate history fantasy events almost impossible to be triggered by the AI ) .

 

[unmerged(15764)]

Originally posted by Innocent
I have attempted to unify Italy rather intensively, and have posted a few comments about it on the general forum. Here I'd like to make my specific comments on the arrangement, and how I think it should be handled.

First:

• Problem: The events are far too difficult to predict. If a player wishes to unify Italy he should have a pretty good idea which nation he should play to do so. For the sake of history this should be Sardinia-Piedmont. Therefore the events should strongly favor Sardinia-Piedmont and only chose the Sicilies or the Papacy under unusual circumstances. As it stands a player has no idea until nearly 1850 if he shall have a chance of forming Italy as the country he chose, and most I suspect dont want to go through the time to edit saves like I have done to force the events to fire for me.
  
• Suggestion: Structure the events to favor Sardinia-Piedmont 90% of the time when Napoleon rules France and Sardinia-Piedmont is a monarchy or constitutional monarchy.

Second:

• Problem: The French events must work. I have no problem with the Italian unification events depending upon French events, since without the support of France it is unlikely that Italy could have been unified, but they must work properly. While I know that this point has been brought up dozens of times, the event triggers should favor the historical outcome. Therefore Napoleon's rise should not be dependant on the French AI chosing to become a Democracy.
  
• Suggestion: Include events for '48 in the game, the event for France should include a primary choice that creates a democracy and triggers the fall of Louis-Phillipe, while having a secondary choice that keeps the Orleanists in Power. Perhaps there should also be a tertiary chance that would establish the Bourbon Legitimists in power. Any selection should lead to revolts, but the later two moreso. This would make the rise of Napoleon dependant upon historical events, and more likely.

Third

• Problem: The Italian War of Unification is far too difficult. This problem can be partly attributed to the overpowered Austria which must be addressed in other methods, but what it boils down to is a war which Sardinia-Piedmont cannot win either as a human or AI. I dont believe the solution is to avoid the war, but simply give it a better chance of success.
  
• Solution 1: The 'Italian Question' event should trigger an event for Austria that forcefully cedes Lombardy to Italy, representing the internal revolt that took place. This puts Italy in a much better position to at least gain some territory from the war even if they ultimately lose to Austria.
  
• Solution 2: It is difficult to say that Italy ever defeated Austria during the wars of independence. The intervention of France and Prussia and the untenable nature of the Austrian position athwart the tidal wave of Italian nationalism made it only realistic that Italy would gain Lombardy in the first war, and Venice in the second regardless of the outcome on the field of battle. Therefore this could be handled via event that gave Austria two choices, the primary choice being surrending this territory and a secondary one going to war (primarily for a human player trying to buck the forces of history). I personally prefer the first alternative, but thought I would put this one forward.

Fourth

• Problem: Becoming Italy should not involve something other than it did historically. Rome should not be required, as it was the last part of Italy (outside of Venice, the Trentino, and Litorral) to actually become part of the Kingdom. It also forces a player or AI to wage two wars of total conquest against the Papacy (all but 2 provinces can be taken in the first war), delaying the eventual creation of the Kingdom of Italy by at least 5 years beyond its historical date.
  
• Solution: Remove the requirement that Rome must be part of an Italian state for it to become Italy.

Fifth

• Problem: When attempting to unify Italy the lack of cores on other Italian states causes a great deal of trouble with revolts.
  
• Solution: Have the 'Italian Question' event add cores on the rest of Italy.

This addresses most of my core concerns, though there are still other historical questions which can be asked, but I realize that Victoria is not meant to reproduce history as it happened. I also am not sure if this is the place to put most of this, as it's technically not a bug. But since this thread was discussing the matter I thought I would put my thoughts here.

You make some very good points, especially the war vs austria is a big problem as the Ai builds 200 divisions and as sardinia piedmont you might manage 50, and france was tied up in a war vs Austrias ally, PRussia and was losing. hmm seems that sometimes the AI only builds 50 divisions and sometimes it builds an infinte amount.

 

[unmerged(17303)]

Originally posted by Innocent
I have attempted to unify Italy rather intensively, and have posted a few comments about it on the general forum. Here I'd like to make my specific comments on the arrangement, and how I think it should be handled.

First:

• Problem: The events are far too difficult to predict. If a player wishes to unify Italy he should have a pretty good idea which nation he should play to do so. For the sake of history this should be Sardinia-Piedmont. Therefore the events should strongly favor Sardinia-Piedmont and only chose the Sicilies or the Papacy under unusual circumstances. As it stands a player has no idea until nearly 1850 if he shall have a chance of forming Italy as the country he chose, and most I suspect dont want to go through the time to edit saves like I have done to force the events to fire for me.
  
• Suggestion: Structure the events to favor Sardinia-Piedmont 90% of the time when Napoleon rules France and Sardinia-Piedmont is a monarchy or constitutional monarchy.

Second:

• Problem: The French events must work. I have no problem with the Italian unification events depending upon French events, since without the support of France it is unlikely that Italy could have been unified, but they must work properly. While I know that this point has been brought up dozens of times, the event triggers should favor the historical outcome. Therefore Napoleon's rise should not be dependant on the French AI chosing to become a Democracy.
  
• Suggestion: Include events for '48 in the game, the event for France should include a primary choice that creates a democracy and triggers the fall of Louis-Phillipe, while having a secondary choice that keeps the Orleanists in Power. Perhaps there should also be a tertiary chance that would establish the Bourbon Legitimists in power. Any selection should lead to revolts, but the later two moreso. This would make the rise of Napoleon dependant upon historical events, and more likely.

Third

• Problem: The Italian War of Unification is far too difficult. This problem can be partly attributed to the overpowered Austria which must be addressed in other methods, but what it boils down to is a war which Sardinia-Piedmont cannot win either as a human or AI. I dont believe the solution is to avoid the war, but simply give it a better chance of success.
  
• Solution 1: The 'Italian Question' event should trigger an event for Austria that forcefully cedes Lombardy to Italy, representing the internal revolt that took place. This puts Italy in a much better position to at least gain some territory from the war even if they ultimately lose to Austria.
  
• Solution 2: It is difficult to say that Italy ever defeated Austria during the wars of independence. The intervention of France and Prussia and the untenable nature of the Austrian position athwart the tidal wave of Italian nationalism made it only realistic that Italy would gain Lombardy in the first war, and Venice in the second regardless of the outcome on the field of battle. Therefore this could be handled via event that gave Austria two choices, the primary choice being surrending this territory and a secondary one going to war (primarily for a human player trying to buck the forces of history). I personally prefer the first alternative, but thought I would put this one forward.

Fourth

• Problem: Becoming Italy should not involve something other than it did historically. Rome should not be required, as it was the last part of Italy (outside of Venice, the Trentino, and Litorral) to actually become part of the Kingdom. It also forces a player or AI to wage two wars of total conquest against the Papacy (all but 2 provinces can be taken in the first war), delaying the eventual creation of the Kingdom of Italy by at least 5 years beyond its historical date.
  
• Solution: Remove the requirement that Rome must be part of an Italian state for it to become Italy.

Fifth

• Problem: When attempting to unify Italy the lack of cores on other Italian states causes a great deal of trouble with revolts.
  
• Solution: Have the 'Italian Question' event add cores on the rest of Italy.

This addresses most of my core concerns, though there are still other historical questions which can be asked, but I realize that Victoria is not meant to reproduce history as it happened. I also am not sure if this is the place to put most of this, as it's technically not a bug. But since this thread was discussing the matter I thought I would put my thoughts here.

I disagree entirely.
The fate of Italy should rest in the hands of the Italians.

If, somehow, Parma is able to unite Italy under the Parmesan banner (which is a very cheesy banner ) So be it.

Look at Spain and China in HOI, at Russia in EU, etc.

Sardinia-Piemonte became Italy by controlling nearly all of Italy, save a few cities near Rome and the Venetian region.

If Giuseppe Garibaldi didn't hand over Sicily to the Sardinians, Italy may have had a different fate.

So, in my opinion, to make it more interesting and balanced, one should be able to carve their own destiny instead of relying on France.

 

[Green Giant]

First Paradox has to fix Austria or you will get run over by them.

Right now Austria is a superpower in Europe and your chances of beating them are slim to none. None of the instability and internal problems that wracked Austria during the period are present in the game to stunt Austria's growth. Capturing Milan as a requirement, I believe, is out of the question until Austria is fixed.