Jagdpanther in B!

[Fussel]

Propably one more useless attempt of mine to get this through but hear me out first.
After the latest patch and the changes to the damage/crit system I feel like vehicle play has become more important then ever.
At guns got an indirect nerf in a sense that they need more shots on average to kill leaving the window open for them to get supressed and in the end overwhelmed/killed. So every division that relied previously on emplacements/at guns feel weaker to me and divisions with a lot of armored options seem pretty strong now. Especially the ones that have access to 1200m guns in early phases.
We also saw new additions to the game for example the Phase B Firefly for the Polish making 1. Pancerna a real juggernaut.
I think it is not to much to ask for a vet1 Jagdpanther in B for 352nd as they feel like one of the weaker divisions right now and it would give them more options besides the regular emplacement/artillery route. We saw previously a reduction to the overall availability so spam is out of question! Also it has not the holding power of a Kingtiger and can get easily supressed and killed due to its low side armor. Proper usage of the Jagdpanther requires quite a lot of skill.
There are plenty of more reasons why we all want to see the Jagdpanther in B but the most important is that everybody loves this iconic vehicle and now it is time to unleash it in B(!) to give it a proper impact on the battlefield!

 

[roirraw]

I think this would be a good change on the surface. Last time I played 352 was about September/October and the lack of any 1200m pushing power before C phase really makes the group feel like it's missing something.

 

[Gondie]

Uhhhh... asking for a buff on a german division.. using the lack of 1200m vehicles as a argument..

I see u like to live dangerus as well herr fussel.. watch out that u dont get 17.SSed by salty devs~

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Not even sure it should be in there at all. 352nd is an infantry division...Jagdpanther is one half of a heavy panzer battalion, for starters. Secondly, the heavy panzer doctrine was to marry Tigers with 'heavy' tank destroyers to have them working in tandem...the TD's sniped stuff flushed out by the tanks.

 

[Fussel]

Not even sure it should be in there at all. 352nd is an infantry division...Jagdpanther is one half of a heavy panzer battalion, for starters. Secondly, the heavy panzer doctrine was to marry Tigers with 'heavy' tank destroyers to have them working in tandem...the TD's sniped stuff flushed out by the tanks.

Eugen doesn't remove things. It is here and it is here to stay. Now all this tables of equipment discussion was held many times and tbh nobody wants to play Wehrmacht infantry divisions in 1944 when they were restructured and stripped of any offensive capabilites. As with other divisions particular units help them out when it is historicaly justified. Like for example 6. Fallschirmjägerregiment for 91. Luftlande. 352nd is weak and this is a minor tweak to spice things up and give new blood to the division. Brummbär switch to A for example made 21. PzD more interesting as well.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Meh...atom bombs for US inf divs would be interesting as well, that's just one extreme in the other direction.

I don't disagree with you Fuss, it's simply the problem Eugen face trying to balance out a primarily mp game in a thematic context.

What I would consider viable for the game as a whole would be to have those 'peak' units, from what were in historical terms support/attached units, to be available to all divisions from a unit selection type of their own, at a variable cost per division (variable to make them expensive for divs they would make OP, cheaper for divs that need them). That would help fix a couple of problems, and have some realism flavour.

 

[Karlburg]

I would not mind this change to help 352 out a little bit. I kinda think windhund could use some help, too.

Windhund feels like a division that was made when the best tank the allies had in phase A was the stuart and having elite panzer IIIs was a big deal.

 

[RoyalColor]

Not even sure it should be in there at all. 352nd is an infantry division...Jagdpanther is one half of a heavy panzer battalion, for starters. Secondly, the heavy panzer doctrine was to marry Tigers with 'heavy' tank destroyers to have them working in tandem...the TD's sniped stuff flushed out by the tanks.

654th Heavy Tank Destroyer battalion was an independent army level asset and it was attached to 352nd division in Normandy more than a couple of times in Normandy. So I'd say there is a historical basis of having JP with 352 in-game.

 

[Gondie]

The division needs the 1.2km tank... Sad, but over he last patches and the introduction of nearly all divisions sins releas we have seen a massiv power creep in the 1.2km tank section.
And thx to the atack ground obtion 1.2km ATGs are not rly a counter in competetiv play anymore. I would mutch more like to see a overthinking of this and a removel of most if not all 1.2 km Tanks from A and making it a exeption in B, restricting the 1.2km tanks as a late game thingy.. But sins we are only tampering sympthomes anyway in this game, a JP in B is what this division needs atm.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

654th Heavy Tank Destroyer battalion was an independent army level asset and it was attached to 352nd division in Normandy more than a couple of times in Normandy. So I'd say there is a historical basis of having JP with 352 in-game.

A quick browse of the net has them in support of 326 inf div, and with only 8 vehicles available in their first action, with more vehs en route to join the unit...they were pulled out of the line a few weeks later. That said though, it was a quick browse.

Edit:

I actually found a ref. today which had a loose synopsis of a number the independent pzr jgr units, when I re-find it I'll post it. Interesting read.

 

[Herr_Robert]

While I think it could work well for 1v1 games, it would definately upset the balance in team games. So I don't think it's a good idea. If 352 needs a buff, it's better to find another way.

 

[Fussel]

Ok I think the masses agree, we need Jagdpanther in B now.

 

[Gilmund]

While I think it could work well for 1v1 games, it would definately upset the balance in team games. So I don't think it's a good idea. If 352 needs a buff, it's better to find another way.

Imo there is no proper solution until you have different decks for 1vs1 and teamplay...
I kinda agree with Fussel, the phase A allied armored pushes are even stronger than before which turns decks with main assets in phase C into dead weights in 1vs1.

 

[and_oceans]

Ok I think the masses agree, we need Jagdpanther in B now.

View attachment 324136View attachment 324137

 

[Herr_Robert]

Imo there is no proper solution until you have different decks for 1vs1 and teamplay...
I kinda agree with Fussel, the phase A allied armored pushes are even stronger than before which turns decks with main assets in phase C into dead weights in 1vs1.

I agree it would be ideal to have separate decks for 1v1 and team games.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

I agree it would be ideal to have separate decks for 1v1 and team games.

That has been an observation pretty much since release...it's just not that commonly expressed these days due to fewer player numbers.

At it stands, the game tries to blend three (or four, depending on your viewpoint) modes into the one deck structure - 1v1, 2v2-4v4, 10v10. (You could include SP skirmish if you want to include the 'historical realism sim' thing).

Each of those game modes plays differently, and each does have discrete needs that differ. It probably wouldn't be easy to actually separate them and provide those specific needs, but it would make the game far better if they were tweaked.

That said though, separate decks were provided for that attack/defense thing, so the 'it's too hard' argument really doesn't hold much water at this point.

 

[Gilmund]

That has been an observation pretty much since release...it's just not that commonly expressed these days due to fewer player numbers.

At it stands, the game tries to blend three (or four, depending on your viewpoint) modes into the one deck structure - 1v1, 2v2-4v4, 10v10. (You could include SP skirmish if you want to include the 'historical realism sim' thing).

Each of those game modes plays differently, and each does have discrete needs that differ. It probably wouldn't be easy to actually separate them and provide those specific needs, but it would make the game far better if they were tweaked.

That said though, separate decks were provided for that attack/defense thing, so the 'it's too hard' argument really doesn't hold much water at this point.

Yes but if we speak ressources priority i do prefer some work on new gamemodes new maps new decks or new units than just revamped decks for actual gamemodes. But it's clear to say one change for 1vs1 does impact teamplay negatively and the other way around so each change for balance purposes does create more unbalance on another gamemode.

Do give more inf to lehr or cheap tigers in A to make it work in 1vs1 and see how lehr becomes invincible in teamplay with no dual decks... I already see dead people saying "germans are op" everywhere! Haha.

 

[Nordhammer]

Not even sure it should be in there at all. 352nd is an infantry division...Jagdpanther is one half of a heavy panzer battalion, for starters. Secondly, the heavy panzer doctrine was to marry Tigers with 'heavy' tank destroyers to have them working in tandem...the TD's sniped stuff flushed out by the tanks.

Schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilings were never officially part of the Schwere Panzer-Abteiling's TOE.

The only s.PzAbt. to receive(swiped/borrowed/found) Jagdpanthers,was s.Pz.Abt 507. Whilst rebuilding in March of '45 the 507th managed to find itself 3 Jagdpanthers and ten Jagdpanzer 38s.

Schneider's 'Tigers in Combat I' & 'II'
Jentz's 'Panzer Tracts # 9.3 "Jagdpanther"
Spielberger's 'Heavy Jagdpanzer'

Mind linking and or mentioning your source?

 

[Nordhammer]

A quick browse of the net has them in support of 326 inf div, and with only 8 vehicles available in their first action, with more vehs en route to join the unit...they were pulled out of the line a few weeks later. That said though, it was a quick browse.
Edit:
I actually found a ref. today which had a loose synopsis of a number the independent pzr jgr units, when I re-find it I'll post it. Interesting read.

'Combat History of the 654th Schwere PanzerJager Abteilung' by Karlheinz Munich
Will help you out.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilings were never officially part of the Schwere Panzer-Abteiling's TOE.

The only s.PzAbt. to receive(swiped/borrowed/found) Jagdpanthers,was s.Pz.Abt 507. Whilst rebuilding in March of '45 the 507th managed to find itself 3 Jagdpanthers and ten Jagdpanzer 38s.

Schneider's 'Tigers in Combat I' & 'II'
Jentz's 'Panzer Tracts # 9.3 "Jagdpanther"
Spielberger's 'Heavy Jagdpanzer'

Mind linking and or mentioning your source?

Nah..quite happy to accept the point.

It reinforces the fact that bib and bob mixing of premier armour units to infantry divs is questionable though...hence my suggestion that 'support' unit equipments should be available across the board, with price balancing being the equaliser. However, not a problem, except whether to consider the game as 'thematic' or 'gamey'...original marketing was the former.

And once I get back to work in a couple of days, I'll dig up that availability source and post it. Haven't forgotten, just don't have the link and can't find it again at home.