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Spelaren

Captain
On Probation
Jun 12, 2019
463
486
Assimilating Taiwan and Korea, keep a firm grip on Manchukuo and make it into Japan's breadbasket/heavy industry zone, and try to keep control of China through indirect means and counter Soviet influence. And hopefully sit out WW2.
Would this work at all? Or have.
 
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Make it declare war on Germany on top and they might get away with "liberating" the DEI even.
 
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Assimilating Taiwan and Korea, keep a firm grip on Manchukuo and make it into Japan's breadbasket/heavy industry zone, and try to keep control of China through indirect means and counter Soviet influence. And hopefully sit out WW2.
Would this work at all? Or have.

Keeping out of China and keeping a firm grip on Manchukuo is a bit contradictory. Manchukuo was a part of China, as far as the Chinese were concerned. If Japan wants to have its puppet state, it can't have good relations with any chinese government.
 
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It's hard to talk about counterfactual strategies for Japan in pre war east Asia without addressing the real counterfactual: How do they rein in the Army?

A civilian government can agree to any number of peace deals with any number of Chinese governments but if the army can still go off on their own and invade who they like Japan ends up in a similar place.

A Japan that conquered Manchukuo but talked the army down from doing anything else would be a very interesting place.
 
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The Marco Polo Bridge Incident in 1937 was just one of a long series of Sino-Japanese border clashes ever since Japan took Manchuria. They all went more or less the same: shooting starts, Chinese back down, and Japan takes over administration of the disputed area in order to "maintain the peace." Japan expected Marco Polo Bridge to go the same way; they had no intention of starting a full-fledge war (indeed, the local Chinese and Japanese commanders had already worked out a draft agreement along those lines when events overtook them). The only reason 1937 spilled over into full-fledged war is that this time Chiang Kai-shek decided not to back down, and chose to escalate in Shanghai, rather than to allow the Japanese occupation zone to draw closer to Beijing.

The Japanese government can't prevent these clashes even if they wanted to, both because the Kwangtung Army tended to selectively interpret or outright ignore orders it didn't like, and because of their own fear of assassinations by more hardline elements if they appear insufficiently expansionist. Indeed, the military actively took steps to interfere with diplomatic maneuvers it did not approve of. Likewise, Chiang can't keep backing down on these conflicts, because he is losing both territory and political support every time (to emphasize this problem, he'd briefly been abducted in a semi-coup by one of his subordinates wanting him to focus on opposing Japan). If it didn't turn into full-fledged war in July 1937, it would have done so at some point in the next few years, so long as Japan continues to occupy Manchuria.
 
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As often happens with this sort of counterfactual this requires Japan to have not been Japan. However, there were certainly factions within Japan who could have reigned in the Kwangtung Army and if they had managed to reign them in then it is possible Japan could have avoided WW2.

As an outcome they would likely have maintained their colonies for a few more years. However, the de-colonising pressure of the 1950s and 60s would likely have led to increased pressure both within and outside the colonies leading to a cycle of violence. China and Japan would have ended up in armed conflict some time in the period unless Japan was prepared to withdraw from most of Manchukuo (a highly unlikely outcome in my opinion). How the conflict would have played out in the tinderbox of the cold war is impossible to predict but I would suggest that the nuking of Japanese cities remains very likely in this circumstance.
 
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To turn this on its head, what you'd need to happen is a change in response from the western powers. Japan is too close to China, and China is too weak, for Japan to resist the temptation to meddle.

So the western powers could have tacitly agreed to let Japan have China as its sphere of influence, in return for which Japan receives western financial help and resources and stays out of WW2 (or enters on the Allied side as in WW1).. I judge this unlikely as the UK, US and France had an interest in keeping others out of China and in not letting Japan get control of the enormous population and resources therein.

Or the western powers could have reacted much earlier - around the time of or even before the Marco Polo Bridge incident - and made credible threats of financial and resource sanctions. This would have embittered Japan but might have discredited the Army leadership and thus kept Japan out of WW2 - or accelerated its desire for revenge and resources, it is hard to say.

But if the western powers do not intervene, 'Japan is gonna do what Japan is gonna do.' The fault line is that waging war in China is good for the Army even if it is ultimately bad for the nation and the governmental structure is too weak to restrain the Army.
 
Resource starved Japan isn't going to be a great power or a regional power without expanding the empire and crippling China. Stopping and backing down basically means Japan must become a servant state to the US and other Western powers, which they would not have chosen for themselves; and dependent on the not very sympathetic West for protection and influence against China as Japan declines into obscurity. I don't see the appeal there and doubt the West would be particularly accommodating.
 
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There was a reason the Jap didn't please with just Manchu. Economics was not very good when every country in the world did protective trade. They know very best that the Western top powers, the British paritcularly, and the Soviet will not let them seize all China (and China's market) for themself. Instead of trying to divide China with other powers, the Jap tried to ally with emerging powers like Germany and Italy.
 
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Keeping out of China and keeping a firm grip on Manchukuo is a bit contradictory. Manchukuo was a part of China, as far as the Chinese were concerned. If Japan wants to have its puppet state, it can't have good relations with any chinese government.
Seconded. The Xian Incident weighed heavily on the mind of the Kwantung Army. It had been a close thing, and China was not going away.

The Kwantung Army invaded China to preempt a Chinese invasion of Manchuria. Similar to how Japan invaded the USSR, and later why they attacked Pearl Harbor.

Let us assume that the Kwantung Army was pulled to heel in 1937, and Japan doesn’t walk into disaster by crossing into China ‘proper’. That is one of those big inflection points in 20th century history.

Possibly Chiang crushes the Chinese Communists in Kansu?

Regardless, barring something we cannot see, war was coming between China and Japan.
 
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Resource starved Japan isn't going to be a great power or a regional power without expanding the empire and crippling China. Stopping and backing down basically means Japan must become a servant state to the US and other Western powers, which they would not have chosen for themselves; and dependent on the not very sympathetic West for protection and influence against China as Japan declines into obscurity. I don't see the appeal there and doubt the West would be particularly accommodating.
While I don’t disagree that this is how things were seen by the insane leaders of the Japanese military, this was simply untrue. Alas that Tokyo could not realize that they were strong before they walked into complete destruction.
 
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Seconded. The Xian Incident weighed heavily on the mind of the Kwantung Army. It had been a close thing, and China was not going away.

The Kwantung Army invaded China to preempt a Chinese invasion of Manchuria. Similar to how Japan invaded the USSR, and later why they attacked Pearl Harbor.

Let us assume that the Kwantung Army was pulled to heel in 1937, and Japan doesn’t walk into disaster by crossing into China ‘proper’. That is one of those big inflection points in 20th century history.

Possibly Chiang crushes the Chinese Communists in Kansu?

Regardless, barring something we cannot see, war was coming between China and Japan.
Possibly. The Xi'an Incident predated the Marco Polo Bridge incident, and that in China was the key pivot where Chiang's strategy shifted from his own preferred Communist-first position to the Japanese-first position that played a role in the lead-up to Marco Polo Bridge. It's hard to tell how long the truce would last because the historical timeline doesn't give a lot of time between Xi'an and the battle that ensured the war at Beijing, so it's difficult to tell how earnest he would remain about it absent external pressure. It is, however, possible if the Tokyo government decisively brings the Kwantung Army to heel with IJA connivance: it would have to be so, because after the February 28 Incident in 1936, any Army opposition would merely result in them toppling the government by withdrawing their support instead. If this occurs and there is no incident at the Marco Polo Bridge, Chiang may have the breathing room to turn the United Front into a way to undermine both the Communists and his own warlords.
 
While I don’t disagree that this is how things were seen by the insane leaders of the Japanese military, this was simply untrue. Alas that Tokyo could not realize that they were strong before they walked into complete destruction.
Simply untrue? How do you figure that?
It is true that Japan relied on outside oil and raw materials. If they want them, they'd have to be captured or bought from the west at a very crippling disadvantage.
Before the PH attack Japan was being strangled through economic warfare, and they were presented with the choice of surrendering first or attacking while they still could. Saying they walked into complete destruction not knowing they were strong isn't an appraisal that makes sense to me. They didn't know they were walking into complete destruction, and they certainly were not strong.
 
Simply untrue? How do you figure that?
It is true that Japan relied on outside oil and raw materials. If they want them, they'd have to be captured or bought from the west at a very crippling disadvantage.
Before the PH attack Japan was being strangled through economic warfare, and they were presented with the choice of surrendering first or attacking while they still could. Saying they walked into complete destruction not knowing they were strong isn't an appraisal that makes sense to me. They didn't know they were walking into complete destruction, and they certainly were not strong.
the economic warfare was as a result of the actual warfare which Japan had started when it invaded China.

had they not done that, there wouldn't have been a call to make them an international pariah.
 
the economic warfare was as a result of the actual warfare which Japan had started when it invaded China.

had they not done that, there wouldn't have been a call to make them an international pariah.

Apparently they failed to update their calender and thought it is still the 19th century.
 
the economic warfare was as a result of the actual warfare which Japan had started when it invaded China.

had they not done that, there wouldn't have been a call to make them an international pariah

Yes. Nothing I have ever seen suggests that the Japanese government were planning to overrun the Dutch East Indies in the mid-30s. If the Japanese had stayed out of China there is no reason to suggest that they could not have continued to import raw materials from the West. Just like Germany, they made a deliberate decision that their freedom of action regardless of others viewpoints were worth going to war over.

Most nations, including colonial powers such as France, imported all sorts of critical material. For example, France was dependent on imports for chromium, nickle and molybdenum - all needed for manufacturing steel suitable for armour plate. The fact that Japan decided that they didn't want to participate in this, except under their own terms, directly led to the Pacific war.

They had choices. They chose confrontation and war. Their people paid the price (along with millions of innocent civilians throughout the Asia-Pacific).
 
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the economic warfare was as a result of the actual warfare which Japan had started when it invaded China.

had they not done that, there wouldn't have been a call to make them an international pariah.
Falsely implying that economic warfare isn't warfare, and so what? Is that supposed to prove your point that Japan was strong? It doesn't. It demonstrates Japanese vulnerability which other nations can exploit any time they choose.

You don't know that, and I doubt that's true. They could still have been smeared as a pariah for any number of reasons without the China war, and could still be extorted for concessions by hostile powers.
 
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Here's the question, though: how likely were other powers to engage in economic warfare with Japan if Japan were not engaged in active warfare with their friends and economic partners? Arguing that Japan was unable to become a great or regional power because they were reliant on foreign imports seems to be contraindicated by the fact that they were already one of the most powerful regional powers in the Far East and had been seen as such since 1905. Certainly, it was not a binary choice between either becoming an independently-great power and perfect subservience to the West. India, for instance, proved its ability to navigate the political shoals of the Cold War and retain regional relevance in spite of being reliant on foreign imports and expertise: even today, it still has a negative trade balance in over $100B in USD. Japan itself pre-war had proven its own ability to act in contravention to Western opinion by seizing Manchuria in the first place. The Mukden Incident saw no further response from the Western world than a League of Nations rebuke, to which Japan responded by withdrawing from the League entirely: no economic sanctions, no real punishments save for those Japan inflicted on itself. If the Marco Polo Bridge incident had somehow resulted in China caving again and demilitarizing or ceding all of Beijing and Tianjin (assume pure ASBattery here), it's unlikely that the West would have done more than write another round of sternly-worded letters. In spite of their economic interests in China, Western sentiment was not really hardened against Japan until the Chinese war had become a long-term mission of conquest and subjugation. You assert that Japan could have been smeared as a pariah, but until decolonization changes the entire game in the 1950s-1970s, I don't see any way in which this is particularly likely short of open war with China.

That said, it is an excellent illustration of the mentality the Japanese leadership had at the time, and thus serves as an invaluable insight into what Henry IX referred to as "requir[ing] Japan to not be Japan." There was indeed a sentiment within Japan at the time that it needed "its own India", by which we refer to a large combination of captive market and resource extraction colony. China was seen as the answer to this sentiment. Supercharge the Japanese economy by conquering China and denuding its own native industry or transferring it to Japanese ownership, forcing it to buy Japanese, and by extracting its resources to fuel the boom. It would essentially be Manchuria and Korea writ large. In this context, it may not be true that Japan cannot be seen as strong without having the option for perfect economic autarky, but it is accurate to say that certain elements in Japan, particularly in the Army, believed this to be the case.
 
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Prior to WW2 the Japanese worked under a pre-WW1 European economic model - that controlling resources in colonies, and markets in colonies, was essential to economic strength. Western attitudes had changed to the point that a colonial empire was seen as something to be maintained but not expanded, and Western resistance to Japan making a colony of China increased year-by-year.

Post-WW2, Japan's economic model shifted and developed into one that, at its peak, was the second-largest on Earth. This was accomplished without colonies, without military conquest and without much in the way of indigenous resources. This could have been a model for a prosperous, industrialized Great-Power-Japan... it was Japanese military spending that over-strained her pre-WW2 economy and absorbed investment capital. I can see a case for Japan being better off by pursuing industrialization, modernization and economic power in concert with the UK and US rather than trying to duplicate their military power on 1/6 their economic strength.
 
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