Let's discuss racial tech and mod suitability

[Jolly Joker]

When you obtain a town of another race than the one you started the game with, you get access to that race's military tech. While I don't find that particularly good, I can accept that it makes sense because of the fact that you need the access to the tech in order to be able to produce better units of that race.

However, shouldn't the racial mods (that is, the mods that you get from the racial techs) be usable only for units of that race? I mean, aren't there enough mods available (you get more from dwellings and as rewards)?

I can imagine that this question has been discussed a lot with devs and testers, and I'm sure there are reasons doing both. However, if I can slap an amazon mod onto my syndicate units and vice versa, that whole race concept is watered down a lot.

So if anyone knows good reasons why racial tech mods should be universally equippable, name them.

 

[mr_stibbons]

Keep in mind that the normal usage will be the reverse, applying mods from your main race to get units from subject races up to par. Preventing this will emphasize migrating cities much more than previously. It could also cut the usage of dwelling units if you had buy from them all of their mods without the ability to use racial mods on them.

On a more aesthetic level, somee people like playing multi-racial empires that feel multi racial even if you do not, and other players like experimenting with units using mods they don't easily have access to. And this would also be an annoying gamey restriction-there's no logical reason you can't strap jetpacks to kir ko except the game designer is telling you not to.

Your only reasons presented for this restriction are that it offers too much choice to the player, and you dislike units using cross racial mods aesthetically. That's not a particularly compelling case.

 

[Garresh]

Nah, because once you gain a mod for any reason, you retain it. Same as if you get a mod from an NPC dwelling then declare war on them. Or stealing units with mods via Subjugator. There's no reason to deny tech access because it would be inconsistent with everything else.

The other reason is because it creates a tradeoff on capturing cities. For focused strategies(other than Syndicate), having cities of other races can be a problem, as they might not fit neatly into your armies. Having an incentive for a diverse empire means you have less focused armies in exchange for more versatility.

 

[wingren013]

I'm going to point out that if you capture a city then immediatly migrate it you still get to use all of that race's mods.

The system I would prefer would be that capturing cities only unlocks the unit part of the tree, but you get to choose damage channel tech like masteries in AOW3. So if I was say playing Psynumbra Vanguard I could choose Lasers and Psi, meaning I can research laser and psi mods (but the damage types of my units are unchanged)

 

[Jolly Joker]

That's not really what I mean. If you look at the tech tree, for the social part of it, that tree is the same for everyone, except the racial part, and the racial part is true for your whole empire, no matter what races you "acquire".

The military tech tree is 4 parts: race, 2 damage channels, "class". The latter 3 are not changed in game or added to, and whether the techs and mods are usable there, doesn't depend on the race.

So the question is more like, when you have no access to other damage channel techs in game - which means, no matter the races you acquire in game, you won't be able to research the damage channel stuff they are associated with -, why do you not only have access to the racial tech and can also use them with all races?

The way I see this, in AoW3 everyone was complaining about the fact that race was a rather secondary label, Class being more important. The fact that you can research all racial tech and use all racial mods with everyone does the same, because it makes the class and the damage channels more defining of what you actually play. When you play, say, Dvar and Celestian, what you are actually playing is Celestian, Kinetics and Explosives, because that is what isn't added to and what you can use. "Dvar", however, is something that may change and added to.
At turn 50 you will still play Celestian, Kinetics and Explosives, but you may play Amazon and Syndicate as well as Dvar and your Dvar units may field Amazon and Syndicate mods as well.

I don't have a problem with multi-racial, but I don't see any rhyme or reason in it.

 

[Garresh]

That's not really what I mean. If you look at the tech tree, for the social part of it, that tree is the same for everyone, except the racial part, and the racial part is true for your whole empire, no matter what races you "acquire".

The military tech tree is 4 parts: race, 2 damage channels, "class". The latter 3 are not changed in game or added to, and whether the techs and mods are usable there, doesn't depend on the race.

So the question is more like, when you have no access to other damage channel techs in game - which means, no matter the races you acquire in game, you won't be able to research the damage channel stuff they are associated with -, why do you not only have access to the racial tech and can also use them with all races?

The way I see this, in AoW3 everyone was complaining about the fact that race was a rather secondary label, Class being more important. The fact that you can research all racial tech and use all racial mods with everyone does the same, because it makes the class and the damage channels more defining of what you actually play. When you play, say, Dvar and Celestian, what you are actually playing is Celestian, Kinetics and Explosives, because that is what isn't added to and what you can use. "Dvar", however, is something that may change and added to.
At turn 50 you will still play Celestian, Kinetics and Explosives, but you may play Amazon and Syndicate as well as Dvar and your Dvar units may field Amazon and Syndicate mods as well.

I don't have a problem with multi-racial, but I don't see any rhyme or reason in it.

That's a good point.

 

[Snorro Soliman]

That's not really what I mean. If you look at the tech tree, for the social part of it, that tree is the same for everyone, except the racial part, and the racial part is true for your whole empire, no matter what races you "acquire".

The military tech tree is 4 parts: race, 2 damage channels, "class". The latter 3 are not changed in game or added to, and whether the techs and mods are usable there, doesn't depend on the race.

So the question is more like, when you have no access to other damage channel techs in game - which means, no matter the races you acquire in game, you won't be able to research the damage channel stuff they are associated with -, why do you not only have access to the racial tech and can also use them with all races?

The way I see this, in AoW3 everyone was complaining about the fact that race was a rather secondary label, Class being more important. The fact that you can research all racial tech and use all racial mods with everyone does the same, because it makes the class and the damage channels more defining of what you actually play. When you play, say, Dvar and Celestian, what you are actually playing is Celestian, Kinetics and Explosives, because that is what isn't added to and what you can use. "Dvar", however, is something that may change and added to.
At turn 50 you will still play Celestian, Kinetics and Explosives, but you may play Amazon and Syndicate as well as Dvar and your Dvar units may field Amazon and Syndicate mods as well.

I don't have a problem with multi-racial, but I don't see any rhyme or reason in it.

This is a good point. The answer is, I believe, twofold.
Firstly, I think the intended gamebalance/mode of play is an issue. If all damage channels and upgrades as well as all racial units are unlocked, lategame mp would gravitate towards everyone using the most cost effevctive mod/unit combo. If availability is equal, than this will tend to deliver a game with a samey late game line up for all. Hardly what was intended by allowing players such choice and freedom. It would be aow3 t4 spam in a way.

Second it invalidates the commander creation process. Since I may access all units, armanent mods and weapon research mods, it brings back the aforementioned issue of aow3 class.. It would be a far les meaningfull choice, my commander would now just dictate which 'spells' I can cast and which special units I may train. Just like aow3.

Having said all that, your point does remain. If I can learn how to create assembly lightning riders after taking their settlement with my vanillaguard, why can I not improve their lightning guns??

 

[Jolly Joker]

Let me expand a bit, I checked a couple of things meanwhile.

In last consequence, this is an issue of the tech tree. Apparantly, everything works fine on the social field. Ot's a bit disappointing that operations and economy techs seem to be the same for everyone, but the doctrine part is a mix of race and secret tech and unique for every combination of both. So when you play Dvar and take over an Amazon town, those amazon towns will function under Dvar doctrine (and, for example, be built without regard for safety regulations and get a discount of 20% production cost, same as Dvar).

In the military part the two damage channel and the secret tech part are fine either. You may capture stuff as a reward or via mind-controling and keeping a unit, but you can't control or plan that - it's random loot, basically. The dwellings have their own mod tech that is conditional in a very specific way. Example: Mantra of the Branded is a Spacer mod that can be equipped by units with a Psionic ability only. The same applies to the damage channel tech modes that are generally usable for units with weapons of that channel

Which leaves the racial part. You can build the secret tech units of a new race without further research, but not the regular units, and this COULD be the end of it. However, it would be rather unsatisfactory to absorb a town of a new race and don't have access to the units characteristic for it. The problem is, we need tech for the better units, so we have to research it. This is a shortcoming of a system, because it makes research awkward (the UI isn't really supportive of the new techs you get, it involves a lot of clicking around and scrolling back and forth), but anyway.
The more generic "Empire Upgrades" don't stack. You'll have to research a ship technology for each race to be able to build their basic ship, but the Empire upgrade doesn't stack; your transports will get the +5 HP only once, no matter how many of those you research.

This is different with mods. Logically spoken, I think I'm not wrong when I say that your first expectation would be a limitation of those mods to units of that race. Instead, the prerequisites are stuff like, cyborg and biological only, Mechanical and Infantry only, Light units only, and so on.

While this isn't the most unlogical thing, it makes "race" an insignificant factor because - it doesn't actually matter what race a unit is. For example, each race has a mod called "(Detector)", with a different primary name, and that mod gives always "detection" - but also a couple of other things, better hit chances, +1 Shield or Defense, even +5 HP, immune against flanking and so on, and a Dwarven Trencher is eligible to equip all 6 of them (that is, any combination of 3 of them).

I find that at least worth a discussion.

EDIT: If you conquer an AI player with a different scret tech, you don't get access to that tech either, although the hacking stuff at least should be reconstructable as well. Basically, I get the point that on this level, if you get access to, say, Amazon tech as the Dvar you can look at that tech and make it usable for your organic units as well, especially, when you don't the the races as races but as factions (there isn't that much racial difference between the Vanguard and the Syndicate, I think). So "race" is more than that. But it's also unsatisfactory in some way, and the example I'll use is Syndicate and Kirko, because their whole attitudes are opposites. Syndicate racial tech is about enslaving, while Kirko would avoid that like nothing else and never use enslaving Psi-Tech mods, would they?

I also think that Amazons and Assembly are a bad fit in that regard.

 

[Rhymer]

Disclaimer: not a competitive player, completely uninterested in multiplayer.

From my own casual perspective, current mode is more entertaining than artificial diversity through increased restrictions (this might change with further enhancements to the base game/expansions). Simply put, the number of building blocks increases. The possibility of combining different racial trees, together with the less predictable element of chance (exploration/timing of conquests) somehow scratches a "Master of Magic" itch of gaming the system (finding broken combinations even if these would not be practical in competitive matches).

 

[Jolly Joker]

I have nothing against that in general. The thing that is bothering me here is the fact that from all the tech possible you get the racial part. Now, as I said, the main reason for that is obviously the fact that you need at least part of it to build the (general, not secret tech) units of that race, but you also get everything else under that tech tree. What you don't get, is the damage channel tech.
Now, both parts of the tech tree have prerequisites for units to be able to use them, but in none of those is race a factor. It MIGHT work that way, that the prerequsites for the racial thing would be racial as well, but you'd unlock the damage channels as well.
Because, as I said in the op, the way it is, "race" has the most insignificant meaning of the things you are playing. You play [race][secret tech], but what you actually play is [damage channel][damage channel][secret tech] because those 3 things are what won't change or expand in game.

 

[wingren013]

Yes this the issue. Every time you capture a city, regardless of whether you absorb, migrate, or raze; you permanently gain access to all of the mods that are part of that racial tech tree. For example, a Vanguardnplayer could capture a Syndicate city and then be able to research control collars for all his infantry. This is not only lore stretching, but also means that your choice of race isn't really important. When you choose race the only significant thing it gives you are your damage channels. Everything else can be accessed by everyone.

Researching units needs to be in so that migrating every city isn't the obvious option. But should you really get all the mods?

 

[Jolly Joker]

Before I'd put this into the suggestion thread, I'd like to discuss the idea I had - maybe someone has a better one or maybe you find good points against it.
I thought a bit more about this, so how about the following:
It will be difficult to add an element of, well, surprise to the research part of the game (what I mean is something that offers variety, when playing the same combo again).
The obtaining of "alien" tech might offer a good chance here.
I suppose the secret tech is correctly off limits - simply assume that the ideas and structures behind those are too complex to understand just from reading a couple of texts obtained via the conquest of a colony.

Whether you get a neutral town of a different race to join you or whether you conquer and absorb it, in both cases you can safely assume, that this conquest won't necessarily allow you to reconstruct the whole (military) tech tree - the neutral colony may simply be not highly developed while the owners of the conquered town may have tried to destroy their research results.

So it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume, that obtaining a colony of a different race might just deliver PART of the military research tree. Technically, the tree would look the same as it does now, except that when you switched to the other race the two damage channels of them (instead of yours) were shown between their racial and your secret tech techs (and in case they had one damage channel you have as well, this would show the techs you already have researched, same as in secret tech.

However, obtaining of a new town would unlock only part of the new stuff for research, hopefully in some meaningful semi-random way. You probably should get the first 4 or 5 unit techs, plus a number of randomly picked techs from the rest.

If you obtained another town, more techs would be unlocked (always at least 1 unit).

Lastly, I could imagine that equipping a unit with a racial mod of a different race might simply cost more energy and cosmite (reflecting the increased effort necessary to "fit" the mod to the different "biology", "software" or "hardware".

 

[wingren013]

Before I'd put this into the suggestion thread, I'd like to discuss the idea I had - maybe someone has a better one or maybe you find good points against it.
I thought a bit more about this, so how about the following:
It will be difficult to add an element of, well, surprise to the research part of the game (what I mean is something that offers variety, when playing the same combo again).
The obtaining of "alien" tech might offer a good chance here.
I suppose the secret tech is correctly off limits - simply assume that the ideas and structures behind those are too complex to understand just from reading a couple of texts obtained via the conquest of a colony.

Whether you get a neutral town of a different race to join you or whether you conquer and absorb it, in both cases you can safely assume, that this conquest won't necessarily allow you to reconstruct the whole (military) tech tree - the neutral colony may simply be not highly developed while the owners of the conquered town may have tried to destroy their research results.

So it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume, that obtaining a colony of a different race might just deliver PART of the military research tree. Technically, the tree would look the same as it does now, except that when you switched to the other race the two damage channels of them (instead of yours) were shown between their racial and your secret tech techs (and in case they had one damage channel you have as well, this would show the techs you already have researched, same as in secret tech.

However, obtaining of a new town would unlock only part of the new stuff for research, hopefully in some meaningful semi-random way. You probably should get the first 4 or 5 unit techs, plus a number of randomly picked techs from the rest.

If you obtained another town, more techs would be unlocked (always at least 1 unit).

Lastly, I could imagine that equipping a unit with a racial mod of a different race might simply cost more energy and cosmite (reflecting the increased effort necessary to "fit" the mod to the different "biology", "software" or "hardware".

Doesn't thay create a scenario where you just end up getting everything and only class is important? Sire it will take time to conquer a city of each race, but settlements exist, and in a decent sized game it shouldn't be insanely hard.

 

[Jolly Joker]

Absorbing just one town will give you the complete race tree immediately. Which means, currently you need to absorb (actually, conquer, but that will be changed) 5 colonies to get everything you can get - what you cannot get are the techs of your 4 missing damage channels, which are 5 each. A race has something like 7 or 8 unit techs plus around 15 racial military techs, so currently, absorbing a town gets you over 20 new techs. Which means, with just 5 colonies you may get 110 out of a possible 130 missing techs. With my system, you'd get 7 or 8 out of 130, which means you'd have to absorb at least 15 colonies.

Also, not unimportantly, the damage channel techs are a lot more restrictive than the racial technologies, because to use them you need units with according weapons. The racial techs are more pliable, that's why higher cost for alien units would make sense, imo.

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Yes this the issue. Every time you capture a city, regardless of whether you absorb, migrate, or raze; you permanently gain access to all of the mods that are part of that racial tech tree. For example, a Vanguardnplayer could capture a Syndicate city and then be able to research control collars for all his infantry. This is not only lore stretching, but also means that your choice of race isn't really important. When you choose race the only significant thing it gives you are your damage channels. Everything else can be accessed by everyone.

Researching units needs to be in so that migrating every city isn't the obvious option. But should you really get all the mods?

Every off-race mod you research slows down your access to mid and late game mods and gear. If you are sandboxing hard you can fart around researching whatever takes your fancy, but balance is dead at that point anyway.

 

[Jolly Joker]

At that stage the cheap options can be simply paid for, losing not much research anyway.

Also, what makes your point flawed is the fact if what you said was true it wouldn't make sense to absorb towns at all, because you shouldn't bother to research their good units. Also "balance is dead at that point anyway" isn't a point at all. "There is something wrong anyway, why correct anything?" Is certainly not the right attitude, isn't it? Otherwise, why bother with balance adjustments at all?

 

[MaitreBouh]

At that stage the cheap options can be simply paid for, losing not much research anyway.

Also, what makes your point flawed is the fact if what you said was true it wouldn't make sense to absorb towns at all, because you shouldn't bother to research their good units. Also "balance is dead at that point anyway" isn't a point at all. "There is something wrong anyway, why correct anything?" Is certainly not the right attitude, isn't it? Otherwise, why bother with balance adjustments at all?

What he means is that if you had the time to research all this, then you probably dominate your enemy already, so there is no balance to discuss in this case.

 

[Frank327]

Vanguard is probably the strongest race to get as an "extra". Nanite injectors and interlocking armor are very strong and versatile mods and they are very cheap to research.

 

[Jolly Joker]

What he means is that if you had the time to research all this, then you probably dominate your enemy already, so there is no balance to discuss in this case.

By extension, though, this would make absorbtion of a different race's colony a non-option: you lose time, since absorption takes longer than migration, and you can only build simple units and "class" units plus, your mods may not "fit" (wrong damage channel). So this would read, "If you had the time to absorb an alien town, then you probably dominate your enemy already, so ther's no balance to discuss in this case.

This would need addressing, right?

Interestingly enough, the logical solution for this would be to simply consider the units of a certain tier (of the corresponding tech) as researched for EVERY race, so when you absorbed an alien town, your UNIT techs had the same status than that of your starting race (but nothing else).

 

[MaitreBouh]

You are exagerating things.

Let's say you just absorbed a city of another race. You can ignore it to follow your research plan and go for your own expensive tech, or you can delay this plan for the new techs you just acquired. To go this second route, the advantage must be worth it over the first route.

There you have some possibilities : the first few techs of that new race can be very fast to research and give you an advantage in the situation you are in. Vanguard mods for example, or amazon Grounding harness. You might want to go farther in the new tree, but then the synergies you'll find between these two races and your secret tech must give more benefits than the next unit or mod in anyone of your trees, weapons and secret tech included.
Finaly you can go all in for the second race if your opponent build for a counter to your first, the setback of starting again, albeit faster at the beginning, will hopefully be compensated by the surprise and the new tactical setup.

The most probable is the first still. It can prove useful.

But indeed multiracial is a very difficult task because of this. Your idea that the unit in the racial tree should be researched for all of them is a good one to make multirace a valid strategy.