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riknap

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So I've decided to get back in modding, starting first with the special units (because balancing buildings becomes brazenly boring). To be able to do it balanced however, I'll need to create a matrix. And thus, this serves as a sort of draft as to how I'll be shaping the cultural/generic special troops.

The system is basically based on the previously developed retinue system, which in turn was based on Shaytana's assignments of cultural troops types and stat effects. Once this system is complete, all retinues would now be exclusively composed of the special troops, whose stats are influenced by two factors: their base troop and their characteristics.

Basically, the base is composed of the dominant troop type from the previous retinue balance. The stats themselves aren't exactly going to be directly copied from the base unit stats exactly (since I just might rebalance them again), but instead will affected by the conceptual archetypes of the said unit as well as their additional characteristics.

The archetypal balance of roles are as follows:
archer = strong skirmish, weak melee, moderate pursue
light infantry = moderate skirmish, moderate melee, moderate pursue
heavy infantry = weak skirmish, strong melee (offence priority), weak pursue
pikemen = weak skirmish, strong melee (defence priority), weak pursue
light cavalry = moderate skirmish, weak melee (defence priority), strong pursue
heavy cavalry = weak skirmish, strong melee, moderate pursue

As I'll be rebalancing all units, I can't say exact numbers right now, but the above should give a general idea of how exactly I envision each unit's role in the battlefield (and consequently how I'll be designing tactics)

That said, I've mentioned that special troops would be affected by characteristics. These characteristics are unique to each troop, and are so attributed to give a net balance of 4 +'s for generics and 7 +'s for culturals. By default, 1 of that is consumed for morale by generics and 2 for culturals. Note that I said a "net balance", so it's certainly possible to have more +'s as long as they are counterbalanced by -'s somewhere else.

Take the rhodoki crossbowmen special troops as an example.
Their base is an archer unit, for obvvious reasons. As crossbowmen with pavise, they can use their shields for cover, giving them skirmish defence++. As the crossbows are easier to aim, they also get a skimish offence+ as well as a melee offence + due to the stronger penetrating power of a crossbow, not to mention they also have had time to train in the melee since crossbow training is less rigorous than bowmanship, hence also a melee defence +. However, the burden of their equipment makes them slower to flee, hence a pursuit defence -, not to mention the slower reload rate gives a pursue offence - as well. As special generic troops, they also get a morale bonus as well by default. This gives a balance of 4 +'s (6+'s & 2-'s), hence a "balance".

I'll have to figure out the numbers in the future with further testing, nor have I finished the list of base/characteristics yet, but for now consider this a sort of dev diary/preview of things to come.
 
Very interesting, I was wondering when would you get to this. So let me get this right... (I'm very thick when it comes to numbers), let's say we give generic special unit X +++ skirmish offence and ++++ melee offence. That and the + to morale bonus make 8, so we apply a ---- to pursuit offence, Would that still make for balanced stats according to the matrix?
Also remember that (IIRC, it was mentioned at the special units' dev diary) cultural buildings can only have one kind of special units per culture. I don't know if this was Paradox's own rule when designing the special units or it is indeed hardcoded.
 
I look forward to how this turns out, but as you are most likely well aware, not all phases and all stats are created equal. Using the same example of pavise crossbowmen, debuffs in Pursue Phase do not offset buffs in Skirmish Phase of equal magnitude, as Skirmish Phase stats generally have greater importance. Please keep this in mind.
 
Very interesting, I was wondering when would you get to this. So let me get this right... (I'm very thick when it comes to numbers), let's say we give generic special unit X +++ skirmish offence and ++++ melee offence. That and the + to morale bonus make 8, so we apply a ---- to pursuit offence, Would that still make for balanced stats according to the matrix?
Also remember that (IIRC, it was mentioned at the special units' dev diary) cultural buildings can only have one kind of special units per culture. I don't know if this was Paradox's own rule when designing the special units or it is indeed hardcoded.

aye, that would be more or less the case. of course, the exact values per +/- is subject to change, but what matters for me is the "tier" really. I like to think of it in terms of RPG min-maxing :laugh:

and I'm guessing it's partly not hardcoded, as they did mention matters about combining multiple special troops in a single army (like a pan-arabian/indian/steppe player empire is likely to do even in vanilla). then again, I'm keeping it to one ST per culture anyway (I think there are a couple of cultures with duplicates [ie. a culture overlapping a culture group] though, unless I've successfully removed them - I'll need to verify it further soon though).



I look forward to how this turns out, but as you are most likely well aware, not all phases and all stats are created equal. Using the same example of pavise crossbowmen, debuffs in Pursue Phase do not offset buffs in Skirmish Phase of equal magnitude, as Skirmish Phase stats generally have greater importance. Please keep this in mind.
aye, that I'm very well aware of. not to mention tactics also have quite an impact, which further muddles the equation.

that said, one way of helping equalize them is to design tactics in such a way that the skirmish phase is just as important as the melee phase, as well as extending the pursue phase enough so that the stats in that field matter (currently, LI already extends the pursue phase, and I'm looking into extending it even further in the future once I get working on tactics)
 
just a preliminary post, but based on what I'm seeing so far, it seems like adding special units is far more cumbersome than I imagined (ie. necessitating a separate special units icon strip that needs to be in order T_T , not to mention a lot of localisation strings need to be added per unit so that the modifiers show up properly).

while I'll still see if I could find a way to standardize my work so that rolling them out is easier, but at the very least I'll at least add in the generic special troops even if I don't convert the other cultural units to special troops.

That said, speaking of generic special troops (one hell of a meaning conflict, I know :p ), I've actually codified them and added them to the SVN (though actual implementation is sketchy due to some technical issues - namely they show up as horse archers, camels, and elephants because of the way they are implemented).

Still, here are the relevant statistics of the generic special troops:

Hedge Knights
#characteristics: Mdefence+, Moffence+, Pdefence+, morale+
morale = 6
maintenance = 2
phase_skirmish_attack = 1
phase_melee_attack = 9
phase_pursue_attack = 2
phase_skirmish_defense = 6
phase_melee_defense = 5
phase_pursue_defense = 4
base_type = heavy_infantry

Rhodoki Crossbowmen
#characteristics: Soffence+, Sdefence++, Moffence+, Mdefence+, Poffence-, Pdefence-, morale+
morale = 4
maintenance = 1
phase_skirmish_attack = 9
phase_melee_attack = 4
phase_pursue_attack = 1
phase_skirmish_defense = 3
phase_melee_defense = 4
phase_pursue_defense = 2
base_type = archers

Elite Spearwall
#characteristics: Sdefence+, Mdefence++, morale+
morale = 6
maintenance = 2
phase_skirmish_attack = 0.1
phase_melee_attack = 6.9
phase_pursue_attack = 1
phase_skirmish_defense = 7
phase_melee_defense = 10
phase_pursue_defense = 2
base_type = pikemen

You might notice that what I essentially did really is take the stats of the base troops (whose stats I've rebalanced a lot as I noted in my other sub-thread), and add/subtract a digit from the relevant stat as I've defined in the char matrix. This would also be amplified further by retinue bonuses, which means that these elite retinues can easily stand their ground and defeat similar units beyond their number.

Of course, this doesn't take into account tactics, but that's a separate project anyway :rofl:
 
Slighlty off-topic, I wanted to suggest that you use buffs in morale offense for spearmen in melee phase to simulate the fact that, while a Macedonian-style phalanx may not kill as many as a charge of heavy cavalry, it is highly intimidating, and it may win the battle by making the opposing side despair. Key to vanquishing such a formation would then be to have high morale troops as much as martial skills, which is very thematic.

This being said, rather than being embedded to any spearman unit, it would be better if the above was the result of a tactic creatively called "Macedonian phalanx" for the appropriate cultures, giving a large morale offense bonus in melee phase, when you overhaul the tactics...

EDIT: sorry this should be in the thread about generic unit balance :blush:
 
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technically, it wouldn't make sense in the unit-balance thread anyway, as you can only affect the total morale a unit has there. morale offence/defence is something that only (commander) traits can utilize :p

... which would however make it a perfect fit if I ever decide to make unique cultural commander traits in the (far) future :rofl:
(that, and I'm quite sure "marital skills" would definitely make a soldier stand and fight I guess? you know, for family... and the process of making more family :rofl: )



regarding special troops in general, I'm now not very sure how to implement them. I'll most likely first only implement the generic special troops first and see how that works out before I consider porting the unique cultural retinues as special troops, for several reasons really - a) because perfectly getting sprites to show up properly for cultural retinues would necessitate editing gfxcultures and relevant DLC-material, thus a sort of technical headache, b) with the Eastern Expansion incoming, I can forsee how we'll need to come up with a LOT of new cultural troops. And it'd be best to fix the base first before we add on to it :p