Long range Artillery that fire over strategic Map

[Nerdfish]

Just a bit of a brainstorming.
Some more modern games (Supcom series, Wargame / Steel division) have artillery with extremely long range, as in they fire across all but the largest maps.

Just thinking what if Planetfall introduces similar units instead of highly annoying strategic spells. These units are capable of attacking enemy stacks and cities on the strategic map. The unit would have a bombard option on the strategic map, allowing the player to select a hex as a target. I'd a bit like build road in AOW3, except the unit does not move. The ability depletes all remaining move points of the unit and inflict some random damage against the stack on the target hex, and kill off some population if the target hex is part of a city. The more move points the artillery has, the more damage it will inflict. The range on the strategic map should not be very huge so air units can catch the artillery stack after they fire.

Of course artillery should be capable of direct fire in tactical combat as well. They are no tank and are rather fragile. However, they'd still be pretty useful in siege battles. These units are mainly proposed as a replacement for anti-city strategic spells like dark omen, dread siege and city quake. They forces the opponent to come out of the city and deal with them, but they require a significant investment, and give an opponent a longer window to respond.

TLDL version: nobody find the disjunct war in AOW3 fun. If siege spells are units instead they'd be more fun to play with and against.

 

[Gloweye]

Command points might do what you're looking for.

 

[BloodyBattleBrain]

He's proposing something physical on the map, with intuitive counter play (destroy the artillery) whereas if command points are casting points (and tbh I think command implies troop count more than anything) there is no counterplay towards strategic spells.

 

[moscal]

It may also be possible on battlefield. Eg. Long-range artillery must be max 3 hex from centrum battle and it on battlefield exist unit with trait "forward observers" he can call "Fire from long-range artillery" in precise place.

 

[Quark02]

Ranged attack with maximum AND minimum range? That sounds like a very nice idea, especially in city defense - if the basic scheme remains the same, one might be safer hugging the wall than being slightly away. I think this was also the case in AoW1, but that was because the wall was blocking for both sides.

 

[sikbok]

Just a bit of a brainstorming.
Some more modern games (Supcom series, Wargame / Steel division) have artillery with extremely long range, as in they fire across all but the largest maps.

Just thinking what if Planetfall introduces similar units instead of highly annoying strategic spells.

We actually discussed several versions of this idea - i.e. a spellcasting alternative wired through units on the map.
A big issue here is that as soon as you have a few of these units on the map you get what we'd call Venn diagram soup. I.e. lots over overlapping circles to define what can reach where..
What makes this worse if the information each of these needs to carry: ownership, what the ability/attack is and what it can do, possibly the state of this ability, etc. Especially when trying to move into an area covered by multiple of these ranged enemy units. At a point it becomes hard to see the fun through the information overload.

There's lots more detail here, but I'll leave it at this to avoid those dreaded walls-of-text.

 

[Quark02]

We actually discussed several versions of this idea - i.e. a spellcasting alternative wired through units on the map.
A big issue here is that as soon as you have a few of these units on the map you get what we'd call Venn diagram soup. I.e. lots over overlapping circles to define what can reach where..
What makes this worse if the information each of these needs to carry: ownership, what the ability/attack is and what it can do, possibly the state of this ability, etc. Especially when trying to move into an area covered by multiple of these ranged enemy units. At a point it becomes hard to see the fun through the information overload.

There's lots more detail here, but I'll leave it at this to avoid those dreaded walls-of-text.

You know, some people actually like walls of text. Better than walls of other kinds.

On another note, one might argue that you do not *need* to show the reach of these Big Bertas, or you could put it on a new map layer (ie to see the reach of the weapons you know of, you must turn off domain/sector borders or whatnot to de-clutter your view). Beyond that it is about ensuring that there aren't too many of these super-special boomba machines, either by extraorbitant cost or limiting one per faction (but seducable/hackable). Perhaps even saying it has to come from the orbital station, but deploying it (summoning it) on the world map will deplete your orbital support (no in-battle summons for you from then on).

I'm not saying I am in favour of this, I'm saying I see potential solutions to the outlined problems. Call me Devil's advocate if you want, I do not protest.

 

[NothingToLose]

A 'Spotter' ability on a weaker unit like a scout, allowing artillery strikes on neighboring tiles as long as an artillery unit is located within x number of tiles of the spotter.

 

[mr_stibbons]

A big issue here is that as soon as you have a few of these units on the map you get what we'd call Venn diagram soup. I.e. lots over overlapping circles to define what can reach where..
What makes this worse if the information each of these needs to carry: ownership, what the ability/attack is and what it can do, possibly the state of this ability, etc. Especially when trying to move into an area covered by multiple of these ranged enemy units. At a point it becomes hard to see the fun through the information overload.

Have you considered collapsing all the bubbles into a general "operations range", based off a factions territory representing controlled airspace the area where back line units can move safely? Because it does seem a bit of a leap that you should have artillery support on tap when on the literal other side of the planet from your only city, which could be hand waved in AOW3 because of the smaller scale and being magic. This keeps the option of cutting off an enemy army from their operations by taking fortresses or sectors near the frontlines without the venn-diagram soup.

 

[sikbok]

On another note, one might argue that you do not *need* to show the reach of these Big Bertas, or you could put it on a new map layer (ie to see the reach of the weapons you know of, you must turn off domain/sector borders or whatnot to de-clutter your view). Beyond that it is about ensuring that there aren't too many of these super-special boomba machines, either by extraorbitant cost or limiting one per faction (but seducable/hackable). Perhaps even saying it has to come from the orbital station, but deploying it (summoning it) on the world map will deplete your orbital support (no in-battle summons for you from then on).

I'm not saying I am in favour of this, I'm saying I see potential solutions to the outlined problems. Call me Devil's advocate if you want, I do not protest.

If you have so few - i.e. 3 - that venn diagram soup is no longer an issue, would it still be fun?
Also, if you move your units on the world map you kinda need to know if you move into range of something nasty right? So, since movement is most of what you do hiding the information won't help in most of the cases.

Have you considered collapsing all the bubbles into a general "operations range", based off a factions territory representing controlled airspace the area where back line units can move safely? Because it does seem a bit of a leap that you should have artillery support on tap when on the literal other side of the planet from your only city, which could be hand waved in AOW3 because of the smaller scale and being magic. This keeps the option of cutting off an enemy army from their operations by taking fortresses or sectors near the frontlines without the venn-diagram soup.

Well done mr_stibbons. You'll find that to be pretty close to the solution we're iterating on now.
Add a bit of Ockham and ditch the unit requirement - which Quark02's comment was leading into conceptually - and you're pretty much there.

 

[Nerdfish]

We actually discussed several versions of this idea - i.e. a spellcasting alternative wired through units on the map.
A big issue here is that as soon as you have a few of these units on the map you get what we'd call Venn diagram soup. I.e. lots over overlapping circles to define what can reach where..
What makes this worse if the information each of these needs to carry: ownership, what the ability/attack is and what it can do, possibly the state of this ability, etc. Especially when trying to move into an area covered by multiple of these ranged enemy units. At a point it becomes hard to see the fun through the information overload.

There's lots more detail here, but I'll leave it at this to avoid those dreaded walls-of-text.

The wall of text please. It's difficult to respond constructively without knowing the details.
I'd propose a simple solution of an artillery overlay by shading each hex by the amount of enemy artillery that can reach it. The more enemy artillery can reach a hex the redder it becomes.
It can be be a easy toggle on the UI.

 

[Jolly Joker]

We have adventure map strikes in AoW 3 as well (and in earlier versions), and they are called strategic spells (and here especially the damage spells, but city-targeting sabotage spells as well).
I suppose, we already know that this will be transferred into the new game via strategic level operations (that is, airstrike from orbit, for example).

With a bit of imagination, there is also something like "sector defense" in AoW 3 ( protection spells on cities and defensive buildings).

Strategic map "combat" should be limited in a game centering around TACTICAL combat. Also, I don't think this kind of long-range strategic combat would be fun. If you need justification - it would be also kind of destructive. There is nothing prohibiting you to GUESS enemy positions and fire into a general direction, hoping on lucky hits, and that would basically destroy the targeted area and everything valuable in it.

 

[count_m4ximus]

The long range artillery backup can always be used as a call in fire support on the battlefield right, in that case it would drop barrage on certain areas on the map after time (i.e barrage falls 3 rounds after it is called) the only thing with artillery is the units without the artillery support would have to have some way of mitigating enemy Fire advantage I.e (be able to dig in thus receiving less damage from artillery strikes or being able to hide, so they cannot be targeted) otherwise the one with the best artillery support will dominate the enemy pretty quickly and combat enbds up as fire support-fest and no guerrilla warfare can happen sadly

 

[mr_stibbons]

The wall of text please. It's difficult to respond constructively without knowing the details.
I'd propose a simple solution of an artillery overlay by shading each hex by the amount of enemy artillery that can reach it. The more enemy artillery can reach a hex the redder it becomes.
It can be be a easy toggle on the UI.

There isn't just a single type of generic artillery in the game though. This system is supposed to replicate the combat spells of age of wonders, which means you would have varying levels of power and different effects to track. Fluffwise, this would be multiple weights and types of artillery, air support of different technology levels, and yet more exotic sci-fi abilities. That can't be condensed to a single intensity value, the UI needs to display, as Sikbok said, "what the ability/attack is and what it can do, possibly the state of this ability, etc"

 

[Garresh]

We actually discussed several versions of this idea - i.e. a spellcasting alternative wired through units on the map.
A big issue here is that as soon as you have a few of these units on the map you get what we'd call Venn diagram soup. I.e. lots over overlapping circles to define what can reach where..
What makes this worse if the information each of these needs to carry: ownership, what the ability/attack is and what it can do, possibly the state of this ability, etc. Especially when trying to move into an area covered by multiple of these ranged enemy units. At a point it becomes hard to see the fun through the information overload.

There's lots more detail here, but I'll leave it at this to avoid those dreaded walls-of-text.

What if certain units replace global spells and therefore are capped at one. To use an AoW3 comparison, imagine if Age of Deception or Age of Magic constructed a unit which "housed" the spell effect. No disjunction. Just go break the unit. You don't even have to win the fight as long as iy dies so suicide drones or something could be an option. Beats the dice roll.

Fwiw I'm not really for or against this. Just spit balling potential alternatives to consider.

On the bombard thing, an interesting option might be something akin to a "Destablized Mana Core Launcher." Essentially you cast it and it builds/summons at a hero or city. It has to prime for 2 turns then can be launched after that. Each subsequent turn adds exponentially increasing upkeep costs making holding onto it without firing a gigantic waste of mana. If priming two at once will literally bankrupt you due to the insane rampup of cost after turn 3 it never reaches Venn Diagram Soup.

TBH I don't think that should be a universal mechanic though. The global spells = structures thing maybe. The bombard unit probably not. Unless the bombard was capped at a range of only a few hexes.

Anyways I got no dogs in that race either way. It's just an interesting thought experimental as a Disjunction alternative.

 

[sikbok]

The wall of text please. It's difficult to respond constructively without knowing the details.

Details about the current system are still subject to change, given we are still iterating on these.
It is on the Dev Diary list, to be discussed when we are happy with it.

Anyways I got no dogs in that race either way. It's just an interesting thought experimental as a Disjunction alternative.

No worries. We've got the disjunction alternative covered for Planetfall.

 

[Dwarfurious]

I want this as well; since long range bombardment is very Dwarfy. The Dvar would surely excel at such things. The Dvar are the greatest.

 

[Draxynnic]

You know, some people actually like walls of text. Better than walls of other kinds.

I'm now imagining a mob wearing MAKE STAR UNION GREAT AGAIN hats chanting "Type the wall! Type the wall!"

 

[Destrada]

Time to make the rubble bounce.