Looking for Game Recommendations

[IrishGirl]

Paradox games, of course ...

A guy I know recommended that I try PI because I like to play strategy and RPG games, saying PI made the best games. The cheapest one I could find which was fairly recent was March of the Eagles, which I bought. Thing is, he said PI games were hard and I found the Eagles, well, pretty easy.

I'm looking for recommendations on which PI titles offer the best most challenge. I own Eagles and all the Mount and Blade games (which I thought were Taleworlds games). Other games I like include: Mount and Blade, Skyrim, Oblivion, Medieval II Total War, Shogun TW, Rome TW, Fallout 3. Games that I hated: DAO (Dragon Age Origions), Assassin's Creed, any Witcher game (would it have killed them to make a female character?), Empire Total War (buggy, buggy, buggy).

Game qualities I like: no bugs (or minimal bugs - I don't like having to fix a game before I can play it), sandbox, a real possibility of losing. I like RPG and strategy games.

Game qualities I hate: leading, controlling games (I'm just playing a role in the game), games that make no sense, games where I'm forced to play a particular gender role.

Games I'm looking at: EU4, Crusader Kings II (is this an RGP? The videos say strategy), maybe Rome game but it looks old.

Last questions: A number of PI titles look very similar to TW titles (or maybe TW titles look very similar to PI titles ...). Is the gameplay similar? Sometimes it's hard to tell from a description.

Also a lot of the forums look dead? Are these game popular? Not being rude, but if no one's here, how many people can actually be playing the games?

Based on the above, what PI Titles would people recommend? Thanks!

 

[AndrewT]

EU4 is not out yet, mid-August. Forum is pretty lively.

CK2 forum is humming, and I suspect that may be the game for you. You essentially play a dynasty, you are the current title-holder of that dynasty and when you die 'you' roll over to now play the heir - if there is one! And that's where you can really lose the game, if there's no heir it's game over for you and your dynasty. You are trying to survive, ensure your heritage, and if possible add to your realm while not upsetting your powerful neighbours too much. Reflecting history you are mostly male, but there's plenty of females in the game and depending on your realm's succession laws you can easily be female. Certainly more of a challenge than MotE. There is a demo there.

I would not say PDS games are similar to TW games, except in a general "they are both grand strategy" sense. PDS games are hugely more historically detailed and plausible, and not so focussed on battle tactics - MotE is actually the most combat-focussed of PDS games. CK2 is more about dynastic struggles (think Game of Thrones) along with religious, cultural, military, diplomatic and economic aspects.

Note that PDS=games actually written by Paradox, PI=games published by but not necessarily written by Paradox.

 

[User29]

If you're looking for outright complexity, I say HoI3 with the expansions, It's pretty hardcore, I still can't organize an army to beat back the damn Germans(WWII game btw)

CK2 is one of the best games of all time, but you must get the Viking DLC, when they finally added pagan stuff this game turned to gold. raiding rome with my viking army just feels so... right(CK2 isn't difficult per se but it's a game you can LOSE. try playing as a Zoroastrian in Iran, the Muslims will eat you alive)

 

[IrishGirl]

Thank you both for your recommendations!

I did buy CKII, based on your advice (make sure you hit Paradox up for a coffee mug or maybe a t-shirt, 'cause I bought it on your suggestions ). It's a great looking game - if nothing else, Paradox knows how to make a great map. And the music is very nice. And, thank you, it's complicated enough. I played for an hour before I realized there were buttons at the bottom of the screen ...

But I'm confused ... what do the "unit packs" do? I'm not actually seeing any battle maps so ... are the battles just the two avatars fighting on the map? That's it, I'm guessing? I probably should have got the demo - my mistake - and after spending quite a bit of money on portraits and unit packs (I bought all the DLC) I'm trying to figure out what they all do.

Which leads to: Does Paradox make any games where armies actually fight on a map (like TW or Mount and Blade)? Before I send a lot of money for games, I'd like to get a better idea of how Paradox's engine manages battles. So, on Andrew's advice, I tried the EU3 demo and if I'm right, the battles are just two icons fighting and the player has no control over battle strategy. Is this generally how Paradox generally rolls with it's battles, because I might not be so interested in that kind of game.

Although, I have to admit: the Type A, micromanaging, need-to-control-ever-single-element-of-the-game is extremely addictive to me. I was hoping I had more control over battle strategy. So, am I missing something? Is there a screen I'm not finding? I did check the manual, but I'm thinking there's nothing there.

One frustration: the forum serial number provided by STEAM for CKII doesn't work. I'm not seeing this as a huge problem - I sent STEAM an e-mail, but they haven't replied yet - because the game itself works fine.

 

[AndrewT]

Doesn't work in what way, what exactly happens? You go to "View CD Key" there, copy the key, go to MyGames above and paste it into the CK2 field?

Not sure what you mean by "unit packs", the units on the map? The DLCs? You should perhaps play the tutorial scenarios.

No, there are no on-screen battles in CK2. This is a grand strategy game, not a tactical battle simulator like TW - I tried to indicate that above. You get a little more of that in EU3 and EU4 (a battle screen down the bottom-left of the screen, showing the battle lines and progress. But you don't get to manoeuvre individual units in battle - that's your general's job). You have to learn to delegate!

 

[Alexander Seil]

I'm looking for recommendations on which PI titles offer the best most challenge. I own Eagles and all the Mount and Blade games (which I thought were Taleworlds games). Other games I like include: Mount and Blade, Skyrim, Oblivion, Medieval II Total War, Shogun TW, Rome TW, Fallout 3. Games that I hated: DAO (Dragon Age Origions), Assassin's Creed, any Witcher game (would it have killed them to make a female character?), Empire Total War (buggy, buggy, buggy).

Game qualities I like: no bugs (or minimal bugs - I don't like having to fix a game before I can play it), sandbox, a real possibility of losing. I like RPG and strategy games.

Game qualities I hate: leading, controlling games (I'm just playing a role in the game), games that make no sense, games where I'm forced to play a particular gender role.

Games I'm looking at: EU4, Crusader Kings II (is this an RGP? The videos say strategy), maybe Rome game but it looks old.

Last questions: A number of PI titles look very similar to TW titles (or maybe TW titles look very similar to PI titles ...). Is the gameplay similar? Sometimes it's hard to tell from a description.

Unfortunately, the game you should probably try is Crusader Kings II. I say unfortunately, because it, like every other PI grand strategy title, does not have a tactical battle mode. On the other hand, you did say you want a sandbox, and CKII is much more of a sandbox than something like TW (which is fundamentally about tactical battles). It's also more of an RPG than many RPGs. And it happens to be the most "mainstream" of all Paradox games (in part due to pretty graphics and the Sims Medieval: Hardcore Edition vibe. Also, the Game of Thrones thing).

 

[User29]

yeah, no tactical battles, I do love those from total war and the like but really it does do wonders knowing you can't fight off 5 full stacks with your one just abusing the ai's stupidity, You need to fight your battles like they do, defend in the mountains and attack on the plains, watch out for rivers and use generals whose traits will give boni to the fights that will ensue. CK2 is about making your dynasty thrive and become hegemons of Europe, Emperors, Archetypes for their religion and cause

I apologize for the unit packs thing cause yeah, they just add diverse sprites on the map, not really my thing either. but its the mechanics of the battle engine that are just leagues above EU3, generals matter, their friggin traits give bonuses or malus' in battles, troop types play a key role, horse archers under the mongols will devastate your russian infantry armies and so much more. I love that game. lol. one day I do hope that they pull in mount and war blade battles though, but honestly Paradox really adds so much to the grand campaign map where they fail at tactical battles




To sum it up, Where Total War spends most of its resources on tactical battles, Paradox makes the Campaign part of the game godly, It blows away the Total War campaign in EVERY way. Plus Vikings and Zoroastrians man, nuff said.

 

[IrishGirl]

Doesn't work in what way, what exactly happens? You go to "View CD Key" there, copy the key, go to MyGames above and paste it into the CK2 field?

Yes, and then I get a message that says "Invalid Key" in red letters.

Not sure what you mean by "unit packs", the units on the map? The DLCs? You should perhaps play the tutorial scenarios.

Hmmm . . unit packs are, well, unit packs. You know? The unit packs they sell on Steam called - get this - "unit packs." ( Just teasing ... ) As in Celtic Unit Pack, Norse Unit Pack, and so on. Is there something called unit packs on the map, 'cause I haven't seen anything but the avatars (I think what Paradox calls "sprites").

Thanks, I did play the tutorial scenarios.

No, there are no on-screen battles in CK2. This is a grand strategy game, not a tactical battle simulator like TW - I tried to indicate that above. You get a little more of that in EU3 and EU4 (a battle screen down the bottom-left of the screen, showing the battle lines and progress. But you don't get to manoeuvre individual units in battle - that's your general's job). You have to learn to delegate!

Okay, I get that. Hmmm . . . the EU3 battle screen (from the demo) was a bit ... lame. Sorry! I soon realized I could watch the battle, but not control any units, or even tell which units were doing what. Delegating is fine, but there don't seem to be any "surprises." And so to win a battle, just make sure you have the advantage in numbers and you're done. Unless I'm missing something.

Unfortunately, the game you should probably try is Crusader Kings II. I say unfortunately, because it, like every other PI grand strategy title, does not have a tactical battle mode. On the other hand, you did say you want a sandbox, and CKII is much more of a sandbox than something like TW (which is fundamentally about tactical battles). It's also more of an RPG than many RPGs. And it happens to be the most "mainstream" of all Paradox games (in part due to pretty graphics and the Sims Medieval: Hardcore Edition vibe. Also, the Game of Thrones thing).

"Sims Medieval: Hardcore Edition"? Nice.

Yes, I played for about eight hours yesterday - until about 3:00 a.m. my time. So CKII is addictive, but only if I'm trying to take over England or something. What do you do when you're not fighting. You queue up a building, maybe nail your neighbor's head on a tree, try to avoid becoming hedonistic and complacent. Of course, I'm still learning the game ...

I do like the sandbox element a lot, which means I'm leaning towards EU3, too, despite the silly tactical battle screen.

yeah, no tactical battles, I do love those from total war and the like but really it does do wonders knowing you can't fight off 5 full stacks with your one just abusing the ai's stupidity,

~ snip ~

There are some mods for the TW games that try to fix that, but yes, one of the problems with these games is the ability to roll over your enemy with one stack. I'm interesting in seeing some of the features you mention. I have played MOTE and I'm familiar with General's traits, but I did play as Great Britain and have since learned that GB is considered easy.

In CKII, yesterday, I played as Dublin - because I'm Irish and because all the guides (yes, I do try to do my homework) said to play as one of the independent states in Ireland. Like MOTE, I didn't find the manual with CKII all that helpful - more a resource than a "how to" guide.

Anyway, thanks for the help everyone.

 

[AndrewT]

The sprite packs (which IMO is what they ought to be called since they don't change 'units' per se) just change the appearance of the large single unit models on the main map. Purely cosmetic.

Yes, and then I get a message that says "Invalid Key" in red letters.

If you didn't buy the game directly from Steam but say the Paradox webshop, you will have been given a Steam activation key to enter into Steam to get access to your game. That is NOT the key you use to register on these forums (this is the most common problem in this area). Instead you get a quite separate forum registration key from the View CD Key option within Steam - just making sure you understand the distinction between those two entirely separate keys.

If that's what you are doing, then somehow Steam have issued you with an invalid forum reg key. You'll need to log a ticket with Paradox support at paradox.zendesk.com to get a valid one issued you.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Okay, I get that. Hmmm . . . the EU3 battle screen (from the demo) was a bit ... lame. Sorry! I soon realized I could watch the battle, but not control any units, or even tell which units were doing what. Delegating is fine, but there don't seem to be any "surprises." And so to win a battle, just make sure you have the advantage in numbers and you're done. Unless I'm missing something.

I don't think there's much going on under the hood in EU3. In CK2 things can badly when you don't expect it, if a commander gets killed on the first day of the skirmishing phase and a flank collapses because his replacement is an idiot. Or, say, a battle that should be a sure victory goes nowhere because your commander employs bad tactics (and all of this is influenced by their commander abilities and personality traits...). It's pretty interesting to watch, although this is not always possible in the middle of a war.

"Sims Medieval: Hardcore Edition"? Nice.

Yes, I played for about eight hours yesterday - until about 3:00 a.m. my time. So CKII is addictive, but only if I'm trying to take over England or something. What do you do when you're not fighting. You queue up a building, maybe nail your neighbor's head on a tree, try to avoid becoming hedonistic and complacent. Of course, I'm still learning the game ...

If you're not fighting, you're usually dealing with people's numerous personal and political issues. That's easily 80% of the game, even if you're in very dangerous area, like the Middle East. The typical strategy business of building stuff on your break times from war isn't really the point of CK2, though it's there.

However, much of this people management is passive - you shouldn't expect to click a lot. Look around, absorb the situation, plan. Pay close attention to vassal personalities and preferences, and make sure that you also pay attention to what's happening in the neighboring realms.

It's different than many strategy games, because, aside from a few critical warnings the game gives, you are not constantly pushed to do something. You have to discover the opportunities on your own.

I do like the sandbox element a lot, which means I'm leaning towards EU3, too, despite the silly tactical battle screen.

EU3 is constrained by being, fundamentally, a very sophisticated Risk clone. In CK2, even if everyone blobs up, there are still internal politics and possibility of collapse. It's a self-sustaining digital ecosystem; if you clean up the savegame to remove dead people, you can play it for thousands of years and interesting stuff will just keep happening naturally.

 

[IrishGirl]

The sprite packs (which IMO is what they ought to be called since they don't change 'units' per se) just change the appearance of the large single unit models on the main map. Purely cosmetic.

If you didn't buy the game directly from Steam but say the Paradox webshop, you will have been given a Steam activation key to enter into Steam to get access to your game. That is NOT the key you use to register on these forums (this is the most common problem in this area). Instead you get a quite separate forum registration key from the View CD Key option within Steam - just making sure you understand the distinction between those two entirely separate keys.

If that's what you are doing, then somehow Steam have issued you with an invalid forum reg key. You'll need to log a ticket with Paradox support at paradox.zendesk.com to get a valid one issued you.

Thank you for the clarification. But no, I bought CKII and all the DLC (and I do mean ALL the DLC) on Steam in one intoxicating shopping spree - lots and lots of clicks. (All the while I was thinking - Wow, this isn't that expensive ... then I got the total and was like "Never mind that ...".) When I was finished, I clicked the purchase button and downloaded it.

When I start the game, there's the window that pops up with my product code: CKII-c27a .... etc. By clicking a button, I can copy that to my clipboard. Then I come to the forum to register it, and I paste it in. That's when I get an error message.

I contacted STEAM and they gave me a couple of possibilities: (1) Paradox gave a bad or duplicate number, (2) someone hacked it and has already registered with it, or whatever. That's where I am right now. They told me I'd have to contact Paradox. I need to do that.

And yes, "sprite packs" would be a better name.

I don't think there's much going on under the hood in EU3. In CK2 things can badly when you don't expect it, if a commander gets killed on the first day of the skirmishing phase and a flank collapses because his replacement is an idiot. Or, say, a battle that should be a sure victory goes nowhere because your commander employs bad tactics (and all of this is influenced by their commander abilities and personality traits...). It's pretty interesting to watch, although this is not always possible in the middle of a war.

Yes, I conquered Ireland again today and I paid a bit more attention to the battles. Its seems like I read somewhere that I could select tactics for each flank, like in MOTE, but I can't seem to figure out how to do that.

Otherwise, I did learn something interesting: you get a LOT more events if you play as a man. Yes, you do. My first game was as a woman. I conquered Ireland, but no one liked me. I mean, eventually they did - but they liked my son better. But mostly it was me, sitting on the outskirts of Dublin, watching what's going on in England ... and thinking ...

Today I played as a man. Interesting. Lot's of stuff going on. Seduction, romance, rolling the courtiers . . . if I wasn't such a fair-minded individual, I'd think Paradox was afraid of something here ... ? None of my women rulers get to do anything like that ...

(Again, I'm just teasing just a bit. I'm used to Mount and Blade where playing as a woman gets you nothing but hard glares and attitude. Now I just need to figure out how to change the damn inheritance rules and we can set world straight ... )

If you're not fighting, you're usually dealing with people's numerous personal and political issues. That's easily 80% of the game, even if you're in very dangerous area, like the Middle East. The typical strategy business of building stuff on your break times from war isn't really the point of CK2, though it's there.

However, much of this people management is passive - you shouldn't expect to click a lot. Look around, absorb the situation, plan. Pay close attention to vassal personalities and preferences, and make sure that you also pay attention to what's happening in the neighboring realms.

It's different than many strategy games, because, aside from a few critical warnings the game gives, you are not constantly pushed to do something. You have to discover the opportunities on your own.

Wow, if you make it sound so interesting. I thought vassals personalities would create situations but it's actually pretty stagnate. You know, if a vassal has the trait of Possessed, I thought there might be interesting situations - but nope, nothing.

I'm still trying to understand the "interesting opportunities." Maybe it's just my mindset, but most of my opportunities are, like, "Chancellor, go fabricate a claim." But, as I said, I'm still learning ...

EU3 is constrained by being, fundamentally, a very sophisticated Risk clone. In CK2, even if everyone blobs up, there are still internal politics and possibility of collapse. It's a self-sustaining digital ecosystem; if you clean up the savegame to remove dead people, you can play it for thousands of years and interesting stuff will just keep happening naturally.

Now that is interesting. Thousands of years? Out of curiosity, why do you have to clean your saved game?

Thanks again.

 

[User29]

They told me I'd have to contact Paradox. I need to do that.

Go ahead and do that, Paradox is incredibly nice about those kind of things and will definitely give you a code to register.

 

[SweArdaia]

I'm still trying to understand the "interesting opportunities." Maybe it's just my mindset, but most of my opportunities are, like, "Chancellor, go fabricate a claim." But, as I said, I'm still learning ...

There are a lot more opportunities then just sending your chancellor somewhere. Maybe you'll invite a claimant to the throne of Byzantium, maybe you marry your children off to form a coalition against France or marry your heir to the 3rd daughter of the king of Castille and make sure that his other offspring will never reach adulthood. Some roleplay can help too, organize a massive feast for your vassals or commission a runestone to tell your tale for future generations.

If you browse around the CK2 forums you will find a lot of people who can provide any eventual help you could need

 

[wolfing]

You have to forget what other so called 'strategy games' have taught you. This is the real thing.
Ireland is considered 'tutorial zone' because it's the easiest start. Nobody invading you any time soon and you can take your time make mistakes, etc.
The core of the game is learning gto think of your dinasty instead of your nation. Think long term: marry you and your kids strategically, to gain important alliances or claims for titles (or just for money if you marry a patrician).
It's not "the game against you". All the nobles you see around are playing the same game you're playing. They are planning and plotting just like you are.

So, to start, you can click on any shield (county, duchy, kingdom, etc) and see who has claims there (you may need to click on 'de jure' to see them). Those are good candidates for marriage or to invite to your court). Claimants are more likely to accept you thinking you could help them gain their claim. But be careful who you invite, some peraonality traits are invitation for trouble (posessed characters are fun).
As a house rule I don't use assassinations, but some players use it for everything.

You personally can only hold a few titles and provinces (your demesne) so the bulk of your army and income will probably come from your vassals once you grow out of Ireland. What to do to keep them happy so they don't revolt against your heir when you die, and juggling titles trying not to make any of your vassals too powerful keeps things entertaining.
So, as you can see, there are many things to do outside combat, which you'll experience as you cross generations and your realm grows out of tutorial Ireland.

 

[Carbon]

There is never a shortage of things to do on CK2. You just have to set your own goals, then expect the unexpected!

In one of my games, I started as a mere count in Epirus. Over the course of 10 generations or so, my characters became dukes of Epirus then kings of Greece then emperors of Byzantium then restoring the Roman Empire. Every level had its challenges. As a count, I struggled to raise great children, buildup some wealth and establish a strong reputation. As a duke, I found myself uniting with my fellow vassal dukes of Byzantium to wage war time and time again against our liege and most of the time, failing. Eventually as a king, my liege was married to the emperor of Francia and there was the real possibility of us getting inherited by them. We had to try to depose her but failed. Luckily her husband died (suspiciously...) all the while the Muslims were knocking on our doorstep.

We forced our liege to elective monarchy eventually, and as the strongest vassal, became emperor. Then I inherited Francia without even knowing it because my heir had a regular marriage with the Emperor's daughter (who luckily for me, became the only remaining heir!).

I finally restored the Roman Empire. But now I must fend off the almighty Ummayads in Spain, a very powerful Norse empire to the North, the Mongols are just at my rear in the East and there are many powerful enemies from within my own empire that could very well be the biggest threats.


Anyways, I did ramble a bit my point is there is always something to do in CK2. Set your own goals and expect the unexpected.

As for the battles, they are definitely strategic but not very tactical like Total War. You have to manage levies, terrain, leaders, troop composition, etc. so there is a strategic element.

If a very deep warfare system is what you're looking for, Hearts of Iron III might be your thing. It's extremely complex though; it makes CK2 look rather simple by comparison. In HoI3, tactical and strategic warfare blend in seamlessly across very large fronts on land, air and sea.