Loyalty questions

[themendios]

I am now pretty deep into this game, the start was a little rocky due to lack of ability to customize but now I feel pretty good.

But I have a problem, namely that one of my Knights (Gerald) who is Tyrant 16, Old Faith 2 with a +2 wife and 2 provinces is red loyalty. I only figured this out because when I ended turn he left! So I added 2 provinces to him but he's still in the red.

I cannot figure this out, I have 16 Tyrant, 10 Old Faith currently and he is the lowest. Even Dagonet who is still Rightful 2, Old Faith 13 has higher loyalty. Morlon the Warlord is almost exactly the same morality as Gerald - Tyrant 15 Old Faith 2 with jack squat and has green loyalty.

I really don't understand loyalty - does it decrease over time? I just don't understand why this one guy who I gave everything I could to still hates me while everyone else is just peachy, even guys that are farther away from my morality and have nothing.

If he was just a so-so knight I'd just suck it up and get rid of him but he's one of my heavy hitters plus I'm worried this will happen to other guys too. What do I need to understand here?

 

[themendios]

Just so I'm not starting any answer at 'completely clueless', here is my understanding of loyalty:

A base value (20?) from which any difference in morality is subtracted.
Any other additional considerations like Gatherer / Proud Leader.
Add in provinces, ladies, any +loyalty gear.

If that's right, then Gerald should be nearly the most loyal soldier I have, since I'm only 8 away from his ideal and I'm something like 21 away from Bors / Dagonet but they are still higher (even Bors who has nothing and is Rightful 3). Plus he has +4 from provinces and +2 from wife.

The only weirdness with Gerald is he's a Mercenary (like Balin, but I don't have Balin to see if the same thing happened since I let them fight and killed him) - but I've got plenty of gold (500g/year is what they want iirc). However I've had some tight monetary spots a few years ago upgrading units / fighting wars, is it possible that I didn't pay him (don't know if it's automatic after taxes or not) and those losses are cumulative instead of static like everything else? Even if so I'm nearing 100k now and haven't had money problems for years I just don't know why this would happen now.

 

[themendios]

Help! Been googling but still don't know the answer.

 

[Mithelemir]

I am not sure what caused this (likely your hypothesis related to not paying Gerald his gold ducats holds), but I can tell you how to regain his loyalty -- torture a few prisoners. Tyrant hero loyalty goes up, if you torture prisoners. Of course, afterward you may need to release those prisoners who survived to get your more virtuous knights to like you again.

 

[themendios]

I am not sure what caused this (likely your hypothesis related to not paying Gerald his gold ducats holds), but I can tell you how to regain his loyalty -- torture a few prisoners. Tyrant hero loyalty goes up, if you torture prisoners. Of course, afterward you may need to release those prisoners who survived to get your more virtuous knights to like you again.

Thanks for replying

I don't have any prisoners, haven't really been at war for long, I tend to wait until I've got both armies positioned to take them out in a season or two.

Even if so I'm still walking a tightrope with Dagonet and Bors still being slightly rightful - had plenty of tyrant quests early on but haven't had many lately, Dagonet's been at 2 rightful foreeever.

Am I right about loyalty being static and modified? Might have to resort to a savegame editor if so, been reading through the old forums to see if anybody had this problem.

 

[Mithelemir]

"Am I right about loyalty being static and modified? Might have to resort to a savegame editor if so, been reading through the old forums to see if anybody had this problem."

Not sure what you mean, but in my experience I have been able to pump it up typically without too much trouble -- you will need prisoners, though

 

[Kaiser Bill]

Have you lkooked at his characteristics? There is possibly some detail in there explaining the loyalty penalty. If he is, for example a gatherer he gets a loyalty penalty for EACH empty item slot, that can be quite punishing. Also, if you married him off is she some sort of harridan? There are some womenfolk who remove more than they add in terms of loyalty when you account for their stats.

 

[themendios]

Have you lkooked at his characteristics? There is possibly some detail in there explaining the loyalty penalty. If he is, for example a gatherer he gets a loyalty penalty for EACH empty item slot, that can be quite punishing. Also, if you married him off is she some sort of harridan? There are some womenfolk who remove more than they add in terms of loyalty when you account for their stats.

Yea I listed them, he's a merc but other than that nothing. The wife has nothing that would indicate reduced loyalty, should be +2 I think.

Finally found the steam manual and thought maybe it would elucidate on loyalty. Wrong!

Loyalty
The loyalty of the hero to his king.
A Knight with low Loyalty might leave the service of his lord. Fiefdoms and
the traits of the hero or the traits of his wife (if he has one) have an effect on
the Loyalty, but differences between the morality of the knight and the king
decreases it.

Not helpful!

 

[Noon]

What about the artefacts that give a loyalty bonus ? It could give you enough time to resolve this problem (use console command if you don't have one)

 

[themendios]

What about the artefacts that give a loyalty bonus ? It could give you enough time to resolve this problem (use console command if you don't have one)

I ditched them because I was carefully grooming everybody to match my alignment and had free provinces/ladies if there was an issue. I don't want to learn console commands or even how to open it cuz that's the death toll for me ever playing legit again

I already started over, read some stuff over on the old forum while looking for the answer to this that made me rethink my overall strategy anyway. I guess I will just keep a close eye on loyalty (and gold with Balin/Gerald) this time around!

 

[Novacat]

I think the problem in your case is that the loyalty penalties from the Mercenary perk are permanent... you lose the loyalty, you cannot get it back. Given, there is one way of getting it back permanently, too.

If you are at war with any empire, you can smash some of their armies, seize their heroes, than, if you are rightful, either release them, each released prisoner brings +1 loyalty to all righteous heroes. If you are tyrant, then torturing them should give tyrant knights +1 loyalty. However, torturing also penalizes your rightful nights by -1 loyalty, so this is not as easily abused with tyrant kings if you have any rightful knights.

 

[themendios]

I think the problem in your case is that the loyalty penalties from the Mercenary perk are permanent... you lose the loyalty, you cannot get it back. Given, there is one way of getting it back permanently, too.

If you are at war with any empire, you can smash some of their armies, seize their heroes, than, if you are rightful, either release them, each released prisoner brings +1 loyalty to all righteous heroes. If you are tyrant, then torturing them should give tyrant knights +1 loyalty. However, torturing also penalizes your rightful nights by -1 loyalty, so this is not as easily abused with tyrant kings if you have any rightful knights.

Yea the permanent losses seem rough. Finally got an all-tyrant round table though so boosted everybody up with some torturin (everybody loves a good torturin)

I figured out Gerald. I missed another loyalty issue he has last time, I think I thought it was Proud Leader or something - but it's Power Hungry or something like that and he requires 3 provinces or another -1 to loyalty. So yea that explains last game. He's also awful at provinces so this is the first hero I've had to actually think about whether I wanted to keep. Spoiler: I did, a champ with Shadow? Hell he can have all my provinces if nobody else needs them!