Lys, Myr and Tyrosh

[Gordreg]

After playing a couple of games, this area of the world has started to sit slightly wrong to me. The first of these is religion. R'hllor may be one of the gods making inroads in the area, (just as he is in Westeros) but Lys has prominent known deities of her own; a Love goddess who features prominently on the iconography of Lys itself, and the weeping lady of Lys (who may or may not be the same deity, given how little we know of them, but is the Lysine goddess of death associated with the Tears of Lys poison). R'hllor is present, yes, but is only really a dominant force in Volantis. I understand that the CK2 mechanics make having a set religion a necessity, but even if a filler religion is needed until someone makes the real one for these cultures or we learn a bit more about them, wouldn't Trios be a better choice then R'hllor for Lys and Myr, given the Triarchy/Kingdom of the three daughters? It'd also give Trios a few more holy sites to spread around, rather then having five sites squished into a Six-province state.

The second is cultural. Lys almost certainly has more of the blood of Valyria then the people of Dragonstone outside of the High Valyrian Lords themselves (which in canon they frequently mixed with; when Targaryen Kings and Princes didn't have sisters to marry they would frequently look to Lys for a Valyrian-blooded wife rather then think of breeding legitimate children with the local Westrossi Andals) so should certainly be be placed in the Valyrian cultural group. For Tyrosh the case isn't quite as strong, but it could possibly be there too, given that the city of Tyrosh itself is another Valyrian colony-island, like Lys and Dagonstone. Myr, meanwhile, may have been a Valyrian colony but most of her actual people are descended more from Andals and Rhoynar; thus placing her in the Dornish culture group would be a perfect fit if Essosi or Valyrian culture seems unfitting in her case.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by placing them out there, and for all I know you might have next-update plans already that make this completely unnecessary. So, thank you for reading, anyone who does!

 

[macgeezy731]

After playing a couple of games, this area of the world has started to sit slightly wrong to me. The first of these is religion. R'hllor may be one of the gods making inroads in the area, (just as he is in Westeros) but Lys has prominent known deities of her own; a Love goddess who features prominently on the iconography of Lys itself, and the weeping lady of Lys (who may or may not be the same deity, given how little we know of them, but is the Lysine goddess of death associated with the Tears of Lys poison). R'hllor is present, yes, but is only really a dominant force in Volantis. I understand that the CK2 mechanics make having a set religion a necessity, but even if a filler religion is needed until someone makes the real one for these cultures or we learn a bit more about them, wouldn't Trios be a better choice then R'hllor for Lys and Myr, given the Triarchy/Kingdom of the three daughters? It'd also give Trios a few more holy sites to spread around, rather then having five sites squished into a Six-province state.

The second is cultural. Lys almost certainly has more of the blood of Valyria then the people of Dragonstone outside of the High Valyrian Lords themselves (which in canon they frequently mixed with; when Targaryen Kings and Princes didn't have sisters to marry they would frequently look to Lys for a Valyrian-blooded wife rather then think of breeding legitimate children with the local Westrossi Andals) so should certainly be be placed in the Valyrian cultural group. For Tyrosh the case isn't quite as strong, but it could possibly be there too, given that the city of Tyrosh itself is another Valyrian colony-island, like Lys and Dagonstone. Myr, meanwhile, may have been a Valyrian colony but most of her actual people are descended more from Andals and Rhoynar; thus placing her in the Dornish culture group would be a perfect fit if Essosi or Valyrian culture seems unfitting in her case.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by placing them out there, and for all I know you might have next-update plans already that make this completely unnecessary. So, thank you for reading, anyone who does!

I agree with everything EXCEPT the Myrish culture change. I say keep them as Myrish, change the religion to trios. I love the idea of being able to have an event to "search for a valyrian spouse" in Lys. This would be awesome. It could even be a expensive venture (as a trip to Lys could be) especially since swooning the Noble Valyrian families that stayed in Lys. I also think that the High and West Valyrian Families should be coded to have a preference to marriage with other valyrian families. This would keep the valyrian features alive in most of those families. Too many times have the Celtigars and the Sunglass families died out within 3 generations. Not sure why but it almost always happens unless I "make" them stay alive by matrilineal marriages with high valyrian commoners. To me that would help. to have the Valyrian culture families prefer other valyrians.

 

[queermobile]

I agree with everything EXCEPT the Myrish culture change. I say keep them as Myrish, change the religion to trios. I love the idea of being able to have an event to "search for a valyrian spouse" in Lys. This would be awesome. It could even be a expensive venture (as a trip to Lys could be) especially since swooning the Noble Valyrian families that stayed in Lys. I also think that the High and West Valyrian Families should be coded to have a preference to marriage with other valyrian families. This would keep the valyrian features alive in most of those families. Too many times have the Celtigars and the Sunglass families died out within 3 generations. Not sure why but it almost always happens unless I "make" them stay alive by matrilineal marriages with high valyrian commoners. To me that would help. to have the Valyrian culture families prefer other valyrians.

Totally agree. I pretty frequently will console move all the unmarried Celtigar, Velaryon and Sunglasses to my court and then find them fitting Lysene/Valyrian (if the Triarch of Volantis is still Valyrian), or random courtier from their own courts to marry them to, should I not have any fitting relatives. Can't count the number of time I've married off a dragon riding daughter to the Velaryon baron of Nimmark.

Also, since we're talking about free cities....there probably needs to be something to stop the constant, and immediate liberation revolts in Volantis. The Valyrians still rule there, without question.

 

[macgeezy731]

Totally agree. I pretty frequently will console move all the unmarried Celtigar, Velaryon and Sunglasses to my court and then find them fitting Lysene/Valyrian (if the Triarch of Volantis is still Valyrian), or random courtier from their own courts to marry them to, should I not have any fitting relatives. Can't count the number of time I've married off a dragon riding daughter to the Velaryon baron of Nimmark.

Also, since we're talking about free cities....there probably needs to be something to stop the constant, and immediate liberation revolts in Volantis. The Valyrians still rule there, without question.

I think we could come up with some pretty creative ways/events to help with the Valyrian situation for the modders and they could tell us if its feasible. Events such as a bride/spouse search of valyrian blood, Dragonseed adoption, possibly increase in Valyrian fertility in the minor houses, more Cadet valyrian houses possibities with increased fertility, and possible a really Expensive venture that will give you a spouse/bride with the attractive, strong, quick/genius trait that way you get your moneys worth.

You are not kidding. Volantis is a refuge of bitterness and rebellion. i dont know why they are so angry other than maybe the religious differences there. but a lot of that could be cleaned up and adjusted to be more lore friendly and it might actually help the stability there.

I also think if you conquer the free cities it should be easier to appoint a feudal government to rule over the different kingdoms since its easier to rule a bunch of "kings/lord paramounts" than Republics.

 

[Kapitalisti]

I also think if you conquer the free cities it should be easier to appoint a feudal government to rule over the different kingdoms since its easier to rule a bunch of "kings/lord paramounts" than Republics.

But republics = money, lots of it. And how are they more difficult to rule over than feudal vassals?

 

[Pokonic]

Some notes on religions:

The Weeping Lady (of Lys) would probably be a better fit for the predominant religion of Lys then R'hillor, definitely. Probable mechanics could involve boosted fertility for worshipers and special options during funerals (pay for professional mourner-prostitutes!), assuming that the Weeping Lady is both the Love and Death goddess. Perhaps the Disputed Lands should be R'hillorite by default.

Myr could probably stay R'hillorite. While the city has no state religion, R'hillor has a marked presence there and is probably the predominant religion of the area, due to a lack of any other being associated with it (even Lorath has its own gods.) At the very least, the red priests operate there much in the same way they do in Volantis, if Thoros's backstory is any indication.

I say Trios worship should stay in Tyrosh, simply because worship of the god elsewhere isn't mentioned anywhere. I would suggest, however, that the god of the area may very well be one of the 'hardest' that is seen as civilized in Essos (close to the Black Goat). Notably, a dwarf was ripped into three chunks and stuffed into the mouths of the main statue of the deity, which could indicate a general hostility towards the physically handicapped; this could have roots in Tyrosh's history of being a military outpost. Making a few of the larger castles on Essos Trios holy sites could be interesting.

 

[macgeezy731]

But republics = money, lots of it. And how are they more difficult to rule over than feudal vassals?

For me the constant changing of leadership in a republic always keeps me on my toes because of each new family hates me usually so i spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to appease them only to have the neighboring republic change leadership what seems just a few years after. I would rather as an Emperor deal with a feudal lordship than some Rich pompous merchant princes.

Some notes on religions:

The Weeping Lady (of Lys) would probably be a better fit for the predominant religion of Lys then R'hillor, definitely. Probable mechanics could involve boosted fertility for worshipers and special options during funerals (pay for professional mourner-prostitutes!), assuming that the Weeping Lady is both the Love and Death goddess.

Myr could probably stay R'hillorite. While the city has no state religion, R'hillor has a marked presence there and is probably the predominant religion of the area, due to a lack of any other being associated with it (even Lorath has its own gods.)

I say Trios worship should stay in Tyrosh, simply because worship of the god elsewhere isn't mentioned anywhere. I would suggest, however, that the god of the area may very well be one of the hardest that is seen as 'civilized' in Essos. Notably, a dwarf was ripped into three chunks and stuffed into the mouths of the main statue of the deity, which could indicate a general hostility towards the physically handicapped; this could have roots in Tyrosh's history of being a military outpost. Making a few of the larger castles on Essos Trios holy sites could be interesting.

I would accept the worship of Rhllor in Myr if the other kingdoms had their canon religions. i just feel that the slave religion of Rhllor is way to strong and binds the kingdoms together against an opposing force pretty easily. Which for me is weird because i thought that the Free cities were always at war with one another but honestly only Lys, Myr, and Volantis seem to ever quarrel in my play through's. I think i might have had one play where Norvos and Lorath went at it but that was it.

 

[Undead Martyr]

I think we could come up with some pretty creative ways/events to help with the Valyrian situation for the modders and they could tell us if its feasible. Events such as a bride/spouse search of valyrian blood, Dragonseed adoption, possibly increase in Valyrian fertility in the minor houses, more Cadet valyrian houses possibities with increased fertility, and possible a really Expensive venture that will give you a spouse/bride with the attractive, strong, quick/genius trait that way you get your moneys worth.

You are not kidding. Volantis is a refuge of bitterness and rebellion. i dont know why they are so angry other than maybe the religious differences there. but a lot of that could be cleaned up and adjusted to be more lore friendly and it might actually help the stability there.

I also think if you conquer the free cities it should be easier to appoint a feudal government to rule over the different kingdoms since its easier to rule a bunch of "kings/lord paramounts" than Republics.

IIRC weren't the Free Cities (except Braavos, which- like Venice- was staunchly Republican and would need to be thoroughly subjugated...) originally run by Archons appointed by Valyria? Perhaps have it so that if you conquer them as an empire you can either make it a feudal title (easier but robs the monies and breeds independent minded vassals) or "appoint an archon" aka use a Viceroyalty kingdom tier with the republic itself demoted to the duchy?

 

[macgeezy731]

IIRC weren't the Free Cities (except Braavos, which- like Venice- was staunchly Republican and would need to be thoroughly subjugated...) originally run by Archons appointed by Valyria? Perhaps have it so that if you conquer them as an empire you can either make it a feudal title (easier but robs the monies and breeds independent minded vassals) or "appoint an archon" aka use a Viceroyalty kingdom tier with the republic itself demoted to the duchy?

You are correct. If you did grant it to an Archon my only thing would be how to keep them loyal. Being they change familys so much the title itself isnt really hereditary.