Make light mechs fun again

[Mik1984]

Lighter mechs in this game are not worth their slot, because you can only have 4 mechs per lance.

They are worth their weight, but not their slot.

I would like the size of the lance to be upgradable up to 6 mechs, while retaining the max weight limit of 400 tons(and even that requires upgrading, as it is only 200 tons per stock)That means if you stick something heavy, you need to stick something light to compensate.

So in early game you have 4 slots per 200 tons, and finally in the end you have 6 slots, per 400 tons.

Furthermore:

Make mech upkeep cost not per month in mech bay, but per deployment. A mech should cost around 5% of his scrap value per deployment. This means that deploying a light mech will cost around 10 000-14 000, but deploying a heavy or assault mech would cost considerably more, therefore it is not worth to deploy tonnage in overkill.
With this feature you may simply get rid of the monthly upkeep cost per mechs in storage bay, mechwarriors will still earn monthly salaries.

Furthermore:

Tonnage should impact the experience your captains get. You get +10% xp per half a skull of difference in xp between the tonnage of your lance and mission difficulty level, so performing a mission with a lance that is 2 skulls larger is -40% xp, or half a skull smaller +10%.

Furthermore:

Introduce a new feature to the game: a mechwarrior only suffers the following amount of injuries on CT destruction: 1 per light, 2 per medium, 3 per heavy, 4 per assault. So mechwarriors have a fair chance of surviving a CT destruction in a light mech, as long as the head is still not destroyed.

This is so that you are less scared of putting valuable mechwarriors into light mechs.

 

[The Shadowhawke]

Oh they're fun alright... anyone that hasn't played the Urbie Arena flashpoint (I don't recall the actual name of that mission) needs to. Actually one of the most fun flashpoints.

I get you though...we need more missions like that which are balanced for under-40 play

 

[Mik1984]

the point is, they are not useful in the game, even if you play the hardcore version of the game where you can perma-lose mechs in battle, you are still better off just going with overkill force ensuring that no one ever damages you close enough.

The goal is not to make light mechs more powerful in general, but to reserve a use for them in later game, as they are powerful enough tonnage for tonnage.

 

[Corraidhin]

Although some folks are very good with light mechs, most aren't (or probably more accurately, don't think they are).

The best way go give lights more use in the late game is situational contracts. It should be relatively easy to come up with a number of contracts where lights make sense. Land not supporting the weight, sneaking under the radar through cover, dust storm etc, fast hit and run missions and so on.

 

[Mik1984]

Although some folks are very good with light mechs, most aren't (or probably more accurately, don't think they are).

The best way go give lights more use in the late game is situational contracts. It should be relatively easy to come up with a number of contracts where lights make sense. Land not supporting the weight, sneaking under the radar through cover, dust storm etc, fast hit and run missions and so on.

I agree this is a good idea, though fast medium mechs would probalby still be a better option, as they can match some resilience and firepower with that speed.

My idea is more thorough. As for now, I don't think how anybody can be "good" with light mechs, one can be "relatively" good, that is make the best of a bad situation, but not genuinely good.

 

[DarkSpade]

Although some folks are very good with light mechs, most aren't (or probably more accurately, don't think they are).

The best way go give lights more use in the late game is situational contracts. It should be relatively easy to come up with a number of contracts where lights make sense. Land not supporting the weight, sneaking under the radar through cover, dust storm etc, fast hit and run missions and so on.

I'd be okay with this if we had more mech bays, or maybe even if we could mothball mechs without stripping them. Otherwise, if I'm maintaining some light mechs in my hanger I'd rather it was because they're a staple of my forces and not just in case I get a quirky mission.

 

[Blade_mercurial]

My idea is more thorough. As for now, I don't think how anybody can be "good" with light mechs, one can be "relatively" good, that is make the best of a bad situation, but not genuinely good.

Light mechs are fairly easy to use once you figure out how important Sprinting is. Most players don't get it, and so they lose their lights due to not having enough Evasion Pips saved up on turns when enemy can concentrate their fire.

If you play your cards right, its not really that hard to beat any mission, no matter how difficult with lights only. In fact, Lights can theoretically destroy enemies faster than heavier mechs can, because you are only going after Rear Armour, so there's less Hitpoints to chew through (although you spend way more time not shooting and setting up your backstabs).

Lights have advantages that make them ideal in certain missions. For example, Lights are hands-down the best option to pick for an Assassinate Mission, although you have to still build them right to breeze through the 4 & 5 Skull Missions. Obviously they are really good at Target Acquisition as well. They can even do very well in Defend Base as long as you don't mind losing a few buildings (because it can't be helped with lights only).

Conversely, Attack/Defend and Destroy Base can be very difficult, especially when there are extremely tanky turrets. Ambush Convoy can also be tough if the convoy is entirely demolishers.

Having Said that, Light Mechs are even easier to use now thanks to the changes and new goodies in Heavy Metal:

Piloting Skill 10 makes Light Mechs even more difficult to hit, with a very nice extra bonus against Melee Attacks. And COIL weapons are kind of OP, although I've learned that they aren't quite as ideal for Light Mechs as they are for Medium Mechs (generally speaking....they can still work on Light Mechs pretty well).

For a rundown on how best to utilize Light Mechs, you can check my post in this thread:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/plans-to-do-light-mech-useful.1284833/

Basically, the TL;DR: Sprint and Sprint and Sprint until you have good shots on rear armour. Then activate first and destroy an enemy (or two if you can pull it off). Then Sprint some more to re-establish your high Evasion and work your way into the Rear Armour of your next target (they turn to face you, so you have to keep doing this). In other words, if you are shooting at front armour with a Light Mech, you're wasting your heat/ammo and time. Backstab for the win; otherwise keep those Evasion Pips at 7+ via sprinting to make your mechs unhittable!

 

[Mik1984]

I see there is somewhat of a "church of light mechs" running around.

Light mechs are powerful, if you play them well, but heavier mechs are even more powerful if you play them well.

Getting good evasion pips on heavier mechs is harder, but if you design them right, that is full jump jets and decent beta strike weaponry that is economic in heat, you can do serious damage. Don't forget using vigilance and master tactician skills, you can get a medium mech to 5 initiative if you must, you can even get a heavy mech to 5 initiative if you have a cyclops in your lance.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

One of the great proving/disproving grounds of the Light Mech Debate is BATTLETECH Multiplayer. One point of feedback is that Hatchets make short work of a Light’s Legs.


Hatchets also have a shot at making short work of Cavalry Lances...

...unless those same Cavalry Lances incorporate Hatchets themselves! : )

 

[DocDesastro]

Now, from the view of a chess player, light mechs DO indeed have a tactical value. They can shut down enemy movement or at least penalize those, who are reckless. As a light mech is very mobile, they can end up in your rear more often and do real damage even to mechs much bigger. So basically, one must understand to position your mechs in such a manner the light mechs will not get through to their back or counter them with an ASN-21 for example. The light mechs have something of 'yeah, you can go there, but I will jump your behinds and pull you a new one!', denying areas to slower mechs or make them pay entering them.
Also, a 4+2 lance model would be nice or 4 troopers, your HQ mech and one scout slot. There are also ideas like making INI go by speed and not by weight class. There are many screws and cogwheels to turn and it could prove interesting. I would be open-minded.

 

[Oni]

Now, from the view of a chess player, light mechs DO indeed have a tactical value. They can shut down enemy movement or at least penalize those, who are reckless. As a light mech is very mobile, they can end up in your rear more often and do real damage even to mechs much bigger. So basically, one must understand to position your mechs in such a manner the light mechs will not get through to their back or counter them with an ASN-21 for example. The light mechs have something of 'yeah, you can go there, but I will jump your behinds and pull you a new one!', denying areas to slower mechs or make them pay entering them.
Also, a 4+2 lance model would be nice or 4 troopers, your HQ mech and one scout slot. There are also ideas like making INI go by speed and not by weight class. There are many screws and cogwheels to turn and it could prove interesting. I would be open-minded.

I'd agree with modifying Lance composition, either by that 4+2 set you suggested or playing around with permitted drop tonnage (after increasing full Lance size to 6) depending on which works better.

As things are now, with a hard limit of 4, it just doesn't feel worth putting in a Light when Mediums or the faster Heavy's could manage well enough and be more survivable.

 

[DarkSpade]

I've noticed I never even bother with Light mechs in target acquisition missions. Speed 5 mediums and heavies work better.

 

[Chaos Theory]

The problem with light mechs is that mediums are just better in every situation. Heavy Metal has seen all the Firestarters in my mech bay replaced with Assassins and Phoenix Hawks which are just as good at playing the mobility+evasion game while carrying more armor and better firepower.

Also, a 4+2 lance model would be nice or 4 troopers, your HQ mech and one scout slot.

I really like the 4+2 suggestion. Introducing new tactical options is perfect xpac/dlc material. Maybe restrict them to certain missions or create some sort of tradeoff. For example: instead of dropping a light mech, the player can choose an artillery strike or a scouting flyover.

 

[DocDesastro]

The problem with light mechs is that mediums are just better in every situation. Heavy Metal has seen all the Firestarters in my mech bay replaced with Assassins and Phoenix Hawks which are just as good at playing the mobility+evasion game while carrying more armor and better firepower.

The sad fact is, that your answer already sotto-voce implies, that none of the other lights are worth considering if you have ANY medium available to swap for. The FS9 is one of the few that can put to use for a longer time. Maybe the Panther as well. But a LCT? A Commando? I have yet to try out a Flea. With the game escalating towards bigger mechs, lights are becoming useless to a certain point or you master them at all. But then - not everybody is as dilligent as @Edmon.

If there were other soft restrictions like drop tonnage or heavy mechs costing more maintenance or R&R to offset mission payouts - some economical balancing (and being a merc is economical). There also could be other effects in play favoring light mechs like high-G worlds bogging down heavy stuff maybe some more than other (strain on internals).

Nevertheless: I welcome any improvement making lights more interesting. We got a magic bullet in form of the ASN-21 against them instead.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Context is important here - in the BattleTech Universe, roughly 90% of Combat Forces were Infantry and Armor.

Wading into such a preponderance of Military Forces, Light Mechs have the speed, durability and Damage Potential to wreak bloody HELL throughout vast stretches of a Combat Front.

When BATTLETECH focuses on Mech-on-Mech Combat it presents a understandably skewed view of Inner Sphere / Rimward Periphery Martial “Reality.”


This Work of Mech Art from Catalyst is much, MUCH more the Rule than the Exception, especially in 3025:

The misconception that Light Mechs are trash or worthless in the 3025 Rimward Periphery is exacerbated by the lack of BATTLETECH Infantry.

It is hard to put 3025 Combat Into perspective when 60-70% of Combat Forces are never present in the equation. :bow:

 

[DocDesastro]

This is the one thing I concur the most looking at the overall concept. But then again all mech games until today have been like mech vs. mech with the occasional vehicle as red-shirt unit. I still ponder the reasons behind it. Maybe stomping or burning soldiers with giant death robots is not a family-friendly activity? In the BT board game this is very much abstracted, but then - from (mind !) my perspective as I have not encountered it any way else: the board game attracts mostly adults which don't care about PEGI ratings. The youngsters clung to 'Battlemace 42k'

 

[Edmon]

Lights generally are very powerful.

The Firestarter in particular is the most powerful mech in the game, in my opinion. You can instantly kill, any mech in the game, in a single rear strike with the correct build. You have the speed, evasion and initiative that ensures you get the first strike and won't take any return damage.

My infamous "Fightstarter" build is the classic example of how you get nearly 300 damage in the RT of your target with ease:

The biggest problem with Light mechs is that their power is directly proportional to the skill of the player.

If you are exceptional at the game, lights will be exceptionally powerful. If you aren't very good at the game, lights won't be very good.

There is no class that more rewards a deep understanding of the game. Unfortunately, this is why lights have a terrible reputation. No effort is made to learn how to play them and thus most have yet to discover their exceptional power. Though that is changing, with my various guides and campaigns on the subject.

I hope they don't buff lights, because they are already total god mode in the right hands. Far more than assaults or heavies will ever be.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

...The Firestarter in particular is the most powerful mech in the game, in my opinion...

Against the AI?

The non-deferring, not-known for watching each other's back AI?

You've got a good case. The Firestarter has an exceptionally fine mix of Hardpoints, Speed, Jump Mobility and Armor. :bow:


But "most powerful'?

That's like the term "GOAT (Greatest Of All Time)." Different gamers weigh different Mech attributes differently.

Is the Firestarter the "most powerful?" Let's take a look at demonstrated performance...


In Single Player the Firestarter can flat out murder the AI. But then a whole lot of Mechs can Murder the AI. Some through the Center Torso (Rear) and some through the Center Torso. The AI is not especially helpful in setting one Mech or another up for recognition as the most powerful.

In Stock Multiplayer the Firestarter is a truly fine Mech and has been present on many a Championship Lance. :bow:

In Custom Multiplayer the Firestarter can bring even more Damage/Turn, and has rock and rolled, along with its Lance, through its fair share of Championships.


I value and equate "powerful" with Damage Output, so for me the Firestarter is not the most powerful in the game.

But ton for ton, to me the Firestarter is the best Value in BATTLETECH, and definitely one of the most deadly. :bow:

 

[Edmon]

I value and equate "powerful" with Damage Output, so for me the Firestarter is not the most powerful in the game.

I define most powerful as ability to turn the start of a mission into a victory screen with the least damage taken and in the least amount of time.

Since the extreme speed and power of the firestarter allows it to clear most missions in about 4-5 turns and in under 6 minutes, it makes a total mockery of slower and aledgedly more powerful heavier mechs. Who can also win said missions, but take much longer and many more turns to even get into position, by which time the firestarter team has usually put at least one lance in the grave (and won the mission if it was only a single lance mission).