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Making a case for French Nobles

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Eochaid

Eochaid

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Gentlemen,

this thread is for those who think that some important French dynasties were forgotten. As Boreal said HERE, if we can prove that the Duché de Bretagne, Comté de Toulouse, Comté d'Anjou and Royaume de Navarre were indeed independant and should hence be playable, they'll do their best.

So... If you want to prove that these dynasties should/should not be playable, here's where you should post.

Cheers,

Eochaid :)
 
Re: Re: Making a case for French Nobles

Originally posted by Havard
Ehum... Noone is contending that Navarra was independent at the time... ;)
Click to expand...

OK, then we still have some work to do for Anjou, Bretagne and Toulouse. :)
 
Re: Re: Re: Making a case for French Nobles

Originally posted by Eochaid
OK, then we still have some work to do for Anjou, Bretagne and Toulouse. :)
Click to expand...

And Aquitaine, and Flanders, and Blois/Champagne. Duchy of Burgundy also, but is less needed at this moment. :)

To prove independence is not easy. But I'm sure developpers of CK could easily prove dependance, no ?

Because, despite vassal link (totally theoric at this time), I don't see where is the superior status of French King compared to territorial princes in 1066. But I can make a mistake... :eek:
 
I agree completely with SP and i'm ready to bring proof if that is necessary :)
 
Originally posted by P. Alavares Cab
I agree completely with SP and i'm ready to bring proof if that is necessary :)
Click to expand...

It is necessary. Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

@Sir Philippe: I think we should keep focused on Bretagne and Toulouse. We'll see what we can do for the rest a bit later
 
Originally posted by Eochaid
@Sir Philippe: I think we should keep focused on Bretagne and Toulouse. We'll see what we can do for the rest a bit later
Click to expand...

OK, but I must immediatly say that the Count of Flanders, by his splitted possessions in Kingdom of France and in Empire (Hainaut, mainly), is double-vassal, and this status (which, in the game's point of view, is a prove of non-independence) ensured a free policy until XIIIth century.

So, if we must engage a controverse on the status of vassal in 1066-France, I think Flandern must immediatly be integrated in debate. Vassal of France ? of Empire ? Both are right. But in practice : indepedence, as long as nor French king, nor Emperor could do anything against...
 
I agree. I don't want to rain on snowballs parade before the bands begun marching, but I think it is a bit of a stretch to say all these southern french counties and duchies should not be playable as they are vassal to french king when he could not actually use his influence over them.

Nominally, and in name, yes absolutely but maybe the line should be drawn over whether these states were actually true vassals or in name only.

The powerful duchy of burgundy, the one we all see in EU2, werent they technically french vassals as well?
 
Originally posted by Jaron
The powerful duchy of burgundy, the one we all see in EU2, werent they technically french vassals as well?
Click to expand...

Well... in 1066, the Duchy of Burgundy wasn't the same as in EU2. In mid 11th century, the Duke was a Robertian, of the direct line of Capet, and, if he wasn't submitted to the king at all (as always : vassal, but only for the symbol), he hadn't a lot of influence, and was always in practice allied to the king, mainly during conflict against the count of Blois-Champagne. So, it's not a crime if Burgundy in 1066 is not playable.



I must say that all the arguments of independance have been given on the other thread. Before any new development of the argumentation, I must demand what is "independance" for a territorial principalty. No serious deny could be based on "sovereignty" or "vasselage" to a little king, unable to destroy the little lords of Montlhery, on the road of Paris to Orleans, until mid-12th century...
 
to help here is a great map of europe in 1100 where you can see who is really important. those who are important are not melted on a greater part, it is whown they are part of the biggest one by shade border. notice that from what is showed the power of the emperor is greater than the one of the king of france (and it will be so until the emperor will be trown out of italy by the gibelin/guelfes war against papacy)
gr1100.jpg

(for translation : duchy is duché, county is comté and realm is royaume :)
as you can see in 1200 it is worse for the french king since guyenne and normandy are swallowed by england (but the french king is still overlord of the king of england for these lands)
http://www.euratlas.net/AHP/grand/gr1200.htm

in 1300 the things are different and we can see that powerfulls kings have passed on france and have well done to restore the authority of the french king. on the contrary on germany the emperor as lost a lot of power, he is just a puppet with not much power left.
http://www.euratlas.net/AHP/grand/gr1300.htm

the things are a bit the same in 1400 but we can see that britanny is back as a duchy and no more as a county :) (and the realm of man is still there ;):D)
http://www.euratlas.net/AHP/grand/gr1400.htm

i hope this will help to see the situation as it was :)
 
Last edited:
And so on...

France%20XII.jpg



The little thing in blue is the terrible King of France (and in 1066, he was even smaller).

If we except english domination on West, limits of the counties and duchy were approximatively the sames one century earlier, with independants Anjou and Aquitaine, and only Normandy united with England. :)
 
Okay:
Anjou, Tolouse, Brittany, Aquitaine, Flanders, Blois, and Champagne need to be made playible...

They could be like the county of Barcelonia, a kingdom in game terms but called a county/dutchy/princedom.

Also: why is Austria playible? Until Fredreck the Red Bearded made it a Arch-Dutchy, there wasn't much there...
 
Originally posted by Sire Philippe
The little thing in blue is the terrible King of France (and in 1066, he was even smaller).
Click to expand...
...and that blue line around it all is the border of the Kingdom of France, effectively making everyone within subjects of the French Crown... right? ;)
 
Originally posted by Havard
...and that blue line around it all is the border of the Kingdom of France, effectively making everyone within subjects of the French Crown... right? ;)
Click to expand...

"Subject" was not used at this time. It's a modern notion. :eek:

The border was only the limits attributed to the Kingdom of Francia Occidentalis, so the "historic" borders of the Kingdom, but this theoric fact was nothing compared to the practice : king has no power, and the great territorial princes did whatever they want inside their counties or duchies... They thought all themselves as french barons (as they were in the Kingdom of France), but certainly not subject to a little lord called king...

As you said earlier, it's a difference between being a king and being a sovereign... the hommage, in 1066, to the king had no importance compared to the feudal link between a duke/count and his direct vassals. King had no control at all over this principalties.

This is not a formal hommage (at this moment), the remembering of the traditional borders of Francia Occidentalis that transform a little king in sovereign...
 
Originally posted by Havard
...and that blue line around it all is the border of the Kingdom of France, effectively making everyone within subjects of the French Crown... right? ;)
Click to expand...

abolutely :)
like on the map i posted about 1100 the red on the right is all subject to the emperor ;) exactly the same :)
no1100.jpg
 
Originally posted by Sonny
Wonder why Bearn isn't on the map. :eek:
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Bearn alone must be considered too small to be on the map.
No map is perfect:rolleyes:

On the other hand, i accept to let Bearn aside if Snowball considers to make Toulouse and the biggest french fiefs playable;)

....just kidding:D
 
Originally posted by Havard
...and that blue line around it all is the border of the Kingdom of France, effectively making everyone within subjects of the French Crown... right? ;)
Click to expand...
It is a french map. They forgot the blue line between Britanny and the kingdom of France :D. Again no "hommage lige" between Britanny and King of France. Subjects are subject of the Duke. Duke by the will of God. Not having anything to do with France, except homage simple. Vassal lige of England for some of its territory. Maybe vassal lige of France for some territories (not sure).

It would be nice to play big dukes anyway...
 
Re: Re: Re: Making a case for French Nobles

Originally posted by Eochaid
OK, then we still have some work to do for Anjou, Bretagne and Toulouse. :)
Click to expand...
I think Provence is playable too - this means either Toulouse (with Languedoc and Provence being treated together) or Anjoy (who ruled Provence and Maine).

Personally I think the latter, with Toulouse being treated as a vassal of Aragon.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Making a case for French Nobles

Originally posted by Martinus
I think Provence is playable too - this means either Toulouse (with Languedoc and Provence being treated together) or Anjoy (who ruled Provence and Maine).

Personally I think the latter, with Toulouse being treated as a vassal of Aragon.
Click to expand...

you are mixing times :)
the anjou ruled provence and maine at the XV century :)
and if toulouse is mixed with provence i prefer to have them NPC instead because it would be a propre horror :) they are 2 different things :)
and toulouse is no vassal of aragon :) not at all. they have a lot of interest in it (the best proof is the intervention of aragon led by "charles le mauvais" at the battle of muret to help the count of toulouse)
 
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