Married Bishops and Patriarchs!

[constantinople!]

I'm usually playing orthodox countries in my games and I've noted that you can marry your Diocese Bishops or can choose a married man as your Diocese Bishop. I've tried the improvement packs, but the same happens, and worse: your Diocese Bishops are named Patriarchs although they are married, and if your Patriarch is single, you can marry him to live hapilly ever after.

However, the situation in the real world is as follows:

A Bishop can decide to get married, but if he does, he instantly ceases to be a Bishop. Also, a married priest cannot become a Bishop, unless his wife accepts to go into a convent and become a nun. Of course, after a priest's wife dies, he can become a Bishop or Patriarch.

Can these conditions be addressed in a Mod so we have realistic Diocese Bishops?

 

[Snaake]

AFAIK, in the real world, historically there were even popes who were or had been married, had children etc. The game allows non-titled ecclesiastical-educated characters to marry, since that's actually just a degree in theology (in modern-day Finland for example, a university degree in theology is a required qualification to become a religion teacher, not just for becoming a priest).

As for the real-world, in modern times it's varied: Catholics priests and bishops can't be (or get) married. (At least) Most Protestant priests can be (and get) married. Orthodox Christians (and some "Eastern" (?) Catholics) allow for priests to be married, but Bishops can not be or get married.

Also, in the medieval period I would think the exact views on these sort of things would be in flux (as they are now as well). There are even two tech trees in the game handling this, religious stringency/flexibility.

I would view the Diocese Bishop as more of an advisor on spiritual matters anyway, although he might (or might not, I believe eg. in England, the Archbishop of Canterbury handles the actual cermeny in royal coronations, marriages, funerals etc, but the chaplain of the royal family is a separate office... or at least this has been the case at some point in history) also hold religious ceremonies

 

[constantinople!]

Thanks for your reply.

I can accept to look at him as an advisor on spiritual matters, and he could very well marry if that is so, as he is not a 'bishop'.

However it must be corrected in the mod were a Diocese Bishop is named Patriarch. There should be a check preventing a married man becoming Patriarch, or ask you if you want to dispose of his wife (make her Nun) in order to make him Patriarch. And once he becomes Patriarch, the game should not let you marry him.

Rgrds
Dimitris

 

[jordarkelf]

I think Veld's TASS is the only mod that has patriarchs, so you should point this in his thread just in case.

I don't see an issue here though. The ban on marriage for clergy is relatively recent: the Quinisext council which barred marriage for priests was unratified at the time of the Great Schism that split Catholicism and Orthodoxy (1054, just a little before CK start) and it took until the Second Lateran Council of 1139 before this became canon (in the Catholic Church only of course). Even so up until the time of Luther there was little support for this rule among the various provinces of the Church.

Canonically a married man can become a priest (and thus later a bishop), but he is expected to become celibate when he does so. For that reason priests are not supposed to marry, since marriage is for procreation, and celibacy is obviously opposed to this.
Within Orthodoxy there is no ban on priests to marry, but traditionally the chance of a married priest to become bishop or higher is close to zero -- although there is no law against it like there is in Catholicism.

It should be impossible to marry diocese bishops in CK or for people who are already married when they become to have children, except for lustful etc., but the engine does not support this.
What is done is that a landed bishop will never marry.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

TASS has added the patriarch-trait to the game, which can be gained by every diocese bishop in the court of an orthodox king.

I am not planning any updates of my mod in the near future, if I will update it then I will see if I can change something things regarding this. Though preventing a married diocese bishop from getting the trait or remove the trait when he is married sounds impossible to mod.

 

[constantinople!]

Thanks for your replies.

Canonically a married man can become a priest (and thus later a bishop), but he is expected to become celibate when he does so. For that reason priests are not supposed to marry, since marriage is for procreation, and celibacy is obviously opposed to this.
Within Orthodoxy there is no ban on priests to marry, but traditionally the chance of a married priest to become bishop or higher is close to zero -- although there is no law against it like there is in Catholicism.

Canonically a married priest cannot become a bishop in the Orthodox Church. He can only become Bishop after his wife dies. Even in the early Byzantine era, when they wanted to make Bishop (or Patriarch) a married man, his wife was forced to become a Nun and enter a convent (in effect, he was divorced). Becoming a Bishop is one of the official 7 rites of the church (like baptism, marriage, etc, they are the same in Catholic and Orthodox churches) and it requires the man to be celibate. That's why it should not be possible to have your Diocese Bishop married (a Bishop is forbidden to marry, if he goes ahead and get married, he is defrocked and ceases to be a Bishop). He could have bastards if he was lustful, but no official children, except if he had them before he became a bishop. Still, it can be 'rectified' by thinking of him as a religious advisor (besides, to have realistic diocese bishops, you should be able to appoint one in every piece of your demense lands, without losing control of that demense land to him).

Best Regards,
Dimitris

 

[jordarkelf]

Thanks Dimitris -- I didn't know that. I knew there were no Orthodox bishops, but wasn't aware it was against church law.

As for diocese bishops -- the name really ought to be changed. You're right in thinking of him as a religious advisor most of these 'issues' are solved (except for the Patriarch one, which could be taken care of by event. It's trivial to write an event that strips the patriarch trait of someone who is married).