Medina, Mecca and Arabian provinces

[MattyG]

This is from Ahmed:


To deal with treat to Meka and Medina by KoJ:

1. Make province Arabia with out fortress.
2. For not being possible to build there fort, either stimulate bug
which was at
vanilla map for Namasque prov, where was "unknown string wanted" when
wanted to
built fort. If that is not possible:
a) make that prov extremely poor, that it is too poor for building
fort.
b) at random events (like "Fortification effort") make that this event
do not
trigers for owner of this prov.
c) edit event file for Caliphate, Egypt and another near muslim
countries, that
if they get random fortress by event, then specify prov where thay get,
that it
will not make fort ar Arabia prov.
3. If KoJ army goes to Medina an Meka, it crosses unfortified Arabia
prov. As
they become controlers of it, they immidetaly triger event: "Defenders
of holy
sancturies".
At this event is written (Calipah could write it) which explains muslim
believes
that Meka and Medina will not fall to nonmuslim power (while muslims is
on
earth), and advance to them angers muslims extremely and they fight
with
extremely varlor. Lets get punishment for arrogant offence against holy
cities!

Event commands:
Stab +6
-RR
CAV 20 000 at Medina with "Defender of Medina" leader with stats 6/6/6
CAV 20 000 at Meka with "Defender of Meka" leader with stats 6/6/6
Some qulity +
Some land +
Possibly more troops with great leaders at another places.
Problems:
1) Event should be for Caliphate, KoJ (rebels at their muslim provs, if
they
control them... But those rebels could create problems for inviders),
owner of
Arabia, and Medina, and Meka...
Maybe muslim neighorgs of KoJ (trigers war...)
So there should be detailed coding.

2) Those troops appears with breaking or weak morale (is ot possible to
change
it? Then there would be possible to place troops at Arabia, too.

3) Those extra troops create being over maintance. May be to not
bancrupcy those
states, give them barracks for this war?
That arrogant move of KoJ, surely would bring to destruction them
becouse of
muslim anger...

4) After war with KoJ ends, those leaders are lost. What with troops?
We can not
- 40 000 Cav, cos then those states will lose all their armies... But
small
desretions would help...

5) Those great leaders would be used for war against Ilkhans if it is
simulanteous war with KoJ. While it is normal to think that Ilkhans
create
endangerment to Meka and Medina by destroying Cal troops whoul coud
help defend
Meka and Medina, but still...

6) At early war when Arabia, Medina and Meka is Hedjaz provs, could
triger that
all those troops are only for them and they no Cal will eat KoJ. But
then there
could be interesting evetn for seceding provs to Cal...

 

[Avernite]

Err. 6/6/6? That's a bloody brilliant leader, on par with Napoleon or Babur

Now, anger can get you a lot of nice things, but in general it should raise morale while only hardly increasing your strategic prowess. Anger can cloud judgement, too.

And twice, even. A bit over the top, it's not as if Allah himself is coming down to save those cities and smite the infidels.

And besides, are they really THAT much more special to Islam than Jerusalem is bound to be for the Christians, after they've had it for ages? Or Rome?

I'd say giving 40k troops out of nowhere is close to what I'd consider the limit, with any additional troops having to be aid from other Muslim powers, who lose their troops accordingly. And *maybe* a 3/3/3 leader or so. And loads of DP changes to increase morale. Maybe the Caliphate barrack won't vanish if this event happens, and appear if it's not there?


And it DEFINATELY needs 'succes' events for the KoJ. First it's presented as a big deal, okay, then the Christians taking it should be an even bigger deal. The combined might of the Muslim world defeated by christians? It should, I think, trigger Nubia returning to Orthodox, maybe some hordes switching religion, Maya going a different religion if they had gone Shiite, etc.

 

[ForzaA]

not to mention the impossibility of the thing.....

keeping the province unfortified MAY be doable by having an event fire every few years removing all forts in the province (not that the AI will remember not to build forts there, then....)

secondly, as this event could happen at any time (ie. that the crusaders come close) there would need to be leaders to "cover" all possible timeframes for this to wake at the appropriate time... Leaders cannot be removed by event.

thirdly, both the AI AND the human player will most likely NOT go and defend mecca or medina with those leaders, but actually go smite some "infidels" (who may well be muslims)
In fact, I'd probably try to lure the KoJ to Medina/Mecca just to get those leaders to send after my "great enemy" of the time.

 

[Incompetent]

Err. 6/6/6? ... Maybe the Caliphate barrack won't vanish if this event happens, and appear if it's not there?

Agreed. I think the consequences of a Christian conquest of Mecca and Medina should mostly be diplomatic, so a Muslim country can come and recover them without repercussions. CBs certainly, and maybe even a badboy reduction for a country that actually manages to do so, representing the great prestige and respect they'd gain in the Muslim world. Also AI changes would be warranted, especially for the Caliphate.

And it DEFINATELY needs 'succes' events for the KoJ. First it's presented as a big deal, okay, then the Christians taking it should be an even bigger deal. The combined might of the Muslim world defeated by christians? It should, I think, trigger Nubia returning to Orthodox, maybe some hordes switching religion, Maya going a different religion if they had gone Shiite, etc.

Not really. The Christian world didn't stagnate because of Saladin taking Jerusalem, and I don't see why a military setback would cause people half a world away to stop believing in Allah. In fact, there's little motivation for the KoJ to take Mecca and Medina - AFAIK they have no religious significance for Christians, so it would just stir up more wars with its neighbours when the KoJ has enough on its plate already. What it might do is change the focus of Muslim countries - for example, the Caliphate would stop trying to 'liberate' Persia and fight the KoJ instead, and the Muslim countries in the area would temporarily set aside their differences to fight the jihad. But that can be done with AI changes

1. Make province Arabia with out fortress...

If that province is virtually uninhabited, it makes sense that it would have no fortress, though its position on the front line would mean the Caliph of Baghdad would soon want to remedy this. In fact I think many provinces around the world needn't have fortresses in 1419. But the KoJ doesn't need or deserve a special beeline to Mecca. If a human KoJ player wants to take Mecca and Medina to spite the Muslim world, let them, but I don't think this whole story is a particularly plausible one otherwise.

 

[Avernite]

Not really. The Christian world didn't stagnate because of Saladin taking Jerusalem, and I don't see why a military setback would cause people half a world away to stop believing in Allah. In fact, there's little motivation for the KoJ to take Mecca and Medina - AFAIK they have no religious significance for Christians, so it would just stir up more wars with its neighbours when the KoJ has enough on its plate already. What it might do is change the focus of Muslim countries - for example, the Caliphate would stop trying to 'liberate' Persia and fight the KoJ instead, and the Muslim countries in the area would temporarily set aside their differences to fight the jihad. But that can be done with AI changes

Well, yes, but isn't Ahmed saying that losing Mekka and Medina WOULD be a big deal to muslims, so much so that the Koran says they will NEVER fall to infidels? Jerusalem simply never HAD that status, because it was occupied by unbelievers when christianity started up.

So obviously, the repercussions of losing them should be much greater. Or the response to their being threatened should be no more than the christian response to Jerusalem falling. Which response does not exist, I believe.

Either say they mean equally much, and thus should generate similar responses, or one means more, and the repercussions of it's fall should be greater.

 

[MattyG]

I posted that as a request from Ahmed.

Ahmed's position is one of being a devout muslim. The Qu'ran makes it clear that these two cities (represented by two provinces in the game) will never be controlled by an infidel until the end of the world. He finds it blasphemous and offensive that the game would permit it to happen and wants Interregnum to make it impossible or for the consequences to be extraordinarily severe. His main preference is that, should a non-muslim country control one of the two provinces, it causes an automatic game crash.

Matty

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Im quite sensitive myself regarding this issue - on one hand, the scriptures clearly say they can NEVER fall - and will not, heck, theyll stand before the forces of the Anti-Christ yada yada.

On the other hand, it's a game - lacking realism and only under heavy coding can we barely represent anything with.

I'd say instead of representing them, what could happen instead is "The Cities are situated deep in the Mountains and vast deserts, and the population is simply too violent - any attack would mean sucide.Best we simply speak with the Town Elders and regulate nominal represenation of our government' - then we can explain the significance of Mecca and Medina to the Islamic faith, and the owner is forced to release them as a vassal state 'Hedjaz'. I suppose that's a good compromise.

And besides, are they really THAT much more special to Islam than Jerusalem is bound to be for the Christians, after they've had it for ages? Or Rome?

You seem to have very little understanding , but indeed they are to Muslims - we had been promised, which in itself is a covenant of faith.

 

[MattyG]

I am happy that the game would have this kind of an internal structure, something that crashes the game if it happens, after a short, explanatory note that expresses the importance of this in the Islamic faith.

But I don't want to code up the complicated thing Ahmed suggested.

But Calipah's idea that it form Hedjaz could only work if the non-Muslim country owns those provinces, meaning they control them in-game for a period, which surely is already against the Qu'ran.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

I am happy that the game would have this kind of an internal structure, something that crashes the game if it happens, after a short, explanatory note that expresses the importance of this in the Islamic faith.

But I don't want to code up the complicated thing Ahmed suggested.

But Calipah's idea that it form Hedjaz could only work if the non-Muslim country owns those provinces, meaning they control them in-game for a period, which surely is already against the Qu'ran.

I suppose that's true - but the Quran or the Gospels dont exactly work in coding Im afraid

It's the only workable way in my opinion to satisfy the different opinions - indeed Mecca and Medina are still 'free' but it's leaders pay vassalship to the non Muslim leaders - sort of like protection money. Unless of course your Avernite and just want to irritate me then we should just create a self destruct event for Jeruslem

 

[Incompetent]

Im quite sensitive myself regarding this issue - on one hand, the scriptures clearly say they can NEVER fall - and will not, heck, theyll stand before the forces of the Anti-Christ yada yada.

On the other hand, it's a game - lacking realism and only under heavy coding can we barely represent anything with.

Yup, we can't stop a Christian country from controlling the holy cities without being really unbelievably heavy-handed, such as causing any country that occupies them to mysteriously convert to Islam at that instant. We can stop or heavily discourage them from keeping the area, though.

If you want an explanation for how the KoJ say could take over Mecca and Medina provinces without contradicting Muslim beliefs, you could say that the Crusaders took most of the surrounding area, but for some reason they never took the holy cities themselves. Perhaps they decided it would be a bad idea to do so; perhaps they were outwitted or held at bay by the locals; perhaps Christians did reach Mecca or Medina, but instantly converted to Islam upon seeing either city; perhaps an unexplained sandstorm/bout of confusion among the Christians/other mysterious occurence shrouded the holy cities and meant the Crusaders never found them. Whether this is due to divine intervention or mundane reasons is up to the player to decide...

I'd say instead of representing them, what could happen instead is "The Cities are situated deep in the Mountains and vast deserts, and the population is simply too violent - any attack would mean sucide.Best we simply speak with the Town Elders and regulate nominal represenation of our government' - then we can explain the significance of Mecca and Medina to the Islamic faith, and the owner is forced to release them as a vassal state 'Hedjaz'. I suppose that's a good compromise.

An event with no choice at all doesn't sound quite right. If nothing else, people will still want to do World Conquests in Interregnum But we could present the player with a choice between releasing a vassal, or facing constant revolts and the eternal wrath of the Muslim world. Bear in mind that if this kind of event has been triggered, Mecca and/or Medina have already fallen to the infidels!

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Then perhaps a revoltrisk of 100 and reconversion events for both cities?

 

[orimazd]

I am happy that the game would have this kind of an internal structure, something that crashes the game if it happens, after a short, explanatory note that expresses the importance of this in the Islamic faith.

But I don't want to code up the complicated thing Ahmed suggested.

But Calipah's idea that it form Hedjaz could only work if the non-Muslim country owns those provinces, meaning they control them in-game for a period, which surely is already against the Qu'ran.

If somehow that does end up in the game, let us know where the coding is so that I could delete it from my versions. I played a game as Papal States and converted the two cities to Catholicism, and I would have done the same to Rome as the Ottomans if the population wasn't so huge.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Or we could just make an event outlaying Muslim beliefs, with the player having several choices dealing with them (Releasing a vassal, keeping them and toughing it up, or simply accept Muslim pilgrims) - could be in a similar form to El-Camio. I can script a universal event for Muslims to deal with this 'crises of faith' - 'We havent been following scripture, we must repent and try to reconquer them' - rallies and that stuff, basically hell for the holders.

 

[idont]

I don't really understand this desire to make the game conform with scripture. I mean, its not accurate in regards to basic physics, history or even the number of days in each month. Why would you expect it to match the Koran?

Also, if you do add these events, are you going to add events for all the other prophecies?

I am happy that the game would have this kind of an internal structure, something that crashes the game if it happens, after a short, explanatory note that expresses the importance of this in the Islamic faith.

Are you serious? I mean, according to the event bible, it is possible to reliably crash the game by seceding a capital, but I think deliberately crashing the game sounds like a bloody awful idea, especially if it's in response to something the AI might randomly do.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

I don't really understand this desire to make the game conform with scripture. I mean, its not accurate in regards to basic physics, history or even the number of days in each month. Why would you expect it to match the Koran?

Also, if you do add these events, are you going to add events for all the other prophecies?
Are you serious? I mean, according to the event bible, it is possible to reliably crash the game by seceding a capital, but I think deliberately crashing the game sounds like a bloody awful idea, especially if it's in response to something the AI might randomly do.

*shrugs* You guys do what you want to do really.

 

[orimazd]

Yeah...I don't want my game to come to a crashing halt because the AI captures Mecca and Medina. Its not the solution; your massive revolts and CBs and what have you are the solution. Were the populations historically as small as the game makes them?

 

[Avernite]

You seem to have very little understanding , but indeed they are to Muslims - we had been promised, which in itself is a covenant of faith.

Well, I suppose. But religion promises loads of things, and we can't accurately represent them all. Besides, there's a certain limit to how much can humanly happen nomatter how important something is. Which was the more important part. Christianity launched a few wars to retake Jerusalem, so obviously such things could happen for Mecca/Medina, but, say, a Genovese Empire stretching from Piemonte to Kaffa, and from Bern to Syracuse might have the strength to defeat any AI-attempts to retake them anyhow.


Something along the lines of El Camino sounds ok though, but because those cities really are just about all there is, perhaps a complete collapse of taxvalue and MP could also be a result? (not drop population to very low numbers, that'd mean VERY easy conversion. Maybe drop population once it's converted)

 

[unmerged(31994)]

I suppose that's a good compromise, though there should be alot of reconversion events to represent the Hajjis and well....you wouldnt expect the heart of Islam to convert to your paganistic ways that easily do you?

 

[MattyG]

For my part, I want to see the following

1. As little coding work as possible.

2. Proper respect shown to a faith, but likewise my own secular beliefs not be dismissed or disrespected.

3. Make certain the events are not just functional, but a learning experience. I want that players would learn something positive about Islam, which clearly has great beauty and wisdom in it. Of course, we also do not want the game to be a forum for prosetylizing, there is a fine balance to be acheived.

 

[Avernite]

I suppose that's a good compromise, though there should be alot of reconversion events to represent the Hajjis and well....you wouldnt expect the heart of Islam to convert to your paganistic ways that easily do you?

KoJ under the Knights Templar should definately be capable of destroying the cities to such an extent that really no muslim, or anyone else for that matter, is left alive in the region. El Camino can be destroyed the first time around at the cost of one reconversion.



My ideas:

1) IF KoJ, and maybe Sicily, Genoa or Byzantium controls Mekka/Medina trigger events a)

2) IF KoJ under Templar, and maybe Sicily, OWN Mekka/Medina, trigger events b)

3) If other christians, trigger c)


a) Owner of Mekka/Medina, IF Sunni/Shiite, gets 'support for counterattack', with two picks: just the help (20-40k troops, 200 ducats or so), or also the mindset (same as help, but also: +10 then -1 offensive, +10 land, +10 -1 quality, -10 serfdom)

b) Similar to El camino, but only two choices: 'destroy the city' which puts BTV, fortress and manpower to zero, converts to Sunni and adds buckets of RR, or 'attempt to stem the tide', -1 BTV, converts to Sunni, slightly less RR

c) different two choices: 'attempt to stem the tide' (same as above) or 'leave them be' releasing the Hedjaz.

after destroy the city, get one reconversion where you can pick 'continue on our path' (little changes) or 'relax' which returns some BTV, MP, and lowers RR to 'stem the tide' levels

after 'stem the tide' or 'relax', two more reconversions with 'continue our efforts' OR 'leave them be' again releasing the Hedjaz.