Miaphysitism should be split — grouping distinct churches is culturally disrespectful

[ATLASME]

In the game, the Armenian, Ethiopian, and Coptic Churches are all grouped under one religious tradition called Miaphysitism. They developed independently, with distinct hierarchies, traditions, sacred geographies, and even biblical canons.

Key Differences at a Glance:​

• Leadership:
  • Armenian Church — led by a Catholicos (Etchmiadzin).
  • Coptic Church — led by a Patriarch (Pope of Alexandria).
  • Ethiopian Church — led by a Patriarch only since 1959; before that, its head (Abuna) was appointed by the Coptic Pope.
• Canon and Language:
  • Each church has a different biblical canon.
  • The Ethiopian Church includes books like Enoch and Jubilees not found in any other Christian canon.
  • Liturgical languages differ: Grabar (Armenian), Coptic, and Ge'ez (Ethiopian).
• Holy Sites:
  • Armenian: Etchmiadzin, Mount Ararat.
  • Coptic: Desert monasteries in Egypt.
  • Ethiopian: Lalibela, Axum — where the Ark of the Covenant is traditionally believed to be kept.

Grouping them under a single generic label not only obscures their uniqueness — it contributes to a form of cultural erasure.
If gameplay mechanics must remain broadly similar, that is understandable from a design standpoint. However, it is vital to at least differentiate them clearly in name and visual representation. Furthermore, they should not be portrayed as branches of the same organization, but rather as separate religious institutions, each with their own hierarchical structures, cultural practices, and worldviews.

 

[Streamlet]

The basis for splitting Christian religions in-game seems to be based on whether they are in full communion with eachother or not, so this is the aspect which should be focused more if you're suggesting new religions. I'm not an expert on Christian history, but at a glance splitting the Miaphysite churches would just lead to an in-game inconsistency with how the other churches are split, unless the criteria for all Christian religions is changed.

Also, there already seems to be game mechanics which represent the differences between the different Miaphysite churches, as seen in this post, so I don't think this grouping is being done out of ignorance or laziness.

 

[ATLASME]

Despite their common origins, Protestant churches remain divided rather than unified — including Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism.Are Eastern churches seen as inferior simply because they are not European?In Europa Universalis V, they seem to be repeating the same mistake that was made in the previous games like Europa Universalis IV and Crusader Kings III.

 

[Thorum]

Why isn't this in the Tinto Talk?
I'm quite sure all these things are separate for not only those three, but two others as well...

Tinto Talks #65 - 28th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V! Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Eastern Christianity religions. We have grouped them into three main religions: Orthodoxy...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[J_Master]

In the game, the Armenian, Ethiopian, and Coptic Churches are all grouped under one religious tradition called Miaphysitism. They developed independently, with distinct hierarchies, traditions, sacred geographies, and even biblical canons.

Key Differences at a Glance:​

• Leadership:
  • Armenian Church — led by a Catholicos (Etchmiadzin).
  • Coptic Church — led by a Patriarch (Pope of Alexandria).
  • Ethiopian Church — led by a Patriarch only since 1959; before that, its head (Abuna) was appointed by the Coptic Pope.
• Canon and Language:
  • Each church has a different biblical canon.
  • The Ethiopian Church includes books like Enoch and Jubilees not found in any other Christian canon.
  • Liturgical languages differ: Grabar (Armenian), Coptic, and Ge'ez (Ethiopian).
• Holy Sites:
  • Armenian: Etchmiadzin, Mount Ararat.
  • Coptic: Desert monasteries in Egypt.
  • Ethiopian: Lalibela, Axum — where the Ark of the Covenant is traditionally believed to be kept.

Grouping them under a single generic label not only obscures their uniqueness — it contributes to a form of cultural erasure.
If gameplay mechanics must remain broadly similar, that is understandable from a design standpoint. However, it is vital to at least differentiate them clearly in name and visual representation. Furthermore, they should not be portrayed as branches of the same organization, but rather as separate religious institutions, each with their own hierarchical structures, cultural practices, and worldviews.

Ignoring the holy sites for a moment, other Christian denominations "suffer" from the same limitations. The question of leadership is settled by IO's where you are a member of a IO headed by the miaphasite country in charge of the seat and these do have custom names. Liturgical language is also done on a tag by tag basis, not on a religious one. Liturgical practice would be a better measure for which to assign religion with rather than communion as it doesn't need mass conversion events when a Eastern church joins in communion with Rome, but by the standards of the system the Miaphasites aren't getting the short hand of the stick

 

[AntarcticRanger]

Despite their common origins, Protestant churches remain divided rather than unified — including Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism.Are Eastern churches seen as inferior simply because they are not European?In Europa Universalis V, they seem to be repeating the same mistake that was made in the previous games like Europa Universalis IV and Crusader Kings III.

All three of those groups considered each other heretics and killed each other over it, while all the Miaphasites are in communion with one another. Plus the game can still implement their differences without separating them into different faiths although, I mean they already are in different IOs depending on what church they are in, it would make sense to attach flavor, minor mechanical differences, and even varying opinions of different churchs into the IOs (all members of one patriarchy having an opinion malus or buff of another patriarchy, that kind of thing)

 

[ATLASME]

All three of those groups considered each other heretics and killed each other over it, while all the Miaphasites are in communion with one another. Plus the game can still implement their differences without separating them into different faiths although, I mean they already are in different IOs depending on what church they are in, it would make sense to attach flavor, minor mechanical differences, and even varying opinions of different churchs into the IOs (all members of one patriarchy having an opinion malus or buff of another patriarchy, that kind of thing)

Each of the 'Miaphysite churches' had the same kind of relations and communication with the Pope of Rome and the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church as they did with each other.Does that mean we should now consider them part of the Catholic or Orthodox Church?

 

[AntarcticRanger]

Each of the 'Miaphysite churches' had the same kind of relations and communication with the Pope of Rome and the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church as they did with each other.Does that mean we should now consider them part of the Catholic or Orthodox Church?

Do you have a source for that? I know the Armenian church tried to have good relations with the Catholic and Orthodox churches due to their geopolitical situation, but that's it

 

[Fawr]

These don't seem as different as the faiths they have grouped together under Protestantism.

 

[ATLASME]

These don't seem as different as the faiths they have grouped together under Protestantism.

Of course, a Western person knows better than me — someone who actually practices this

Do you have a source for that? I know the Armenian church tried to have good relations with the Catholic and Orthodox churches due to their geopolitical situation, but that's it

Sources of what? Relationships?

 

[AntarcticRanger]

Sources of what? Relationships?

We are talking about which churches are in communion with each other here, right? So do you have sources of the Armenian church excommunicating the Coptic church, or either one entering communion with the Catholic church, that kind of thing.

Communion doesn't really even require churches to be in regular contact: I'd say that the Maronites were in communion with the rest of the Latin church even when they were out of contact with them for example.

Of course, a Western person knows better than me — someone who actually practices this

Do you have evidence of different Miaphysite churches killing each other over differences in their faith? Because at the moment, that's the situation inside of "Calvinism" alone. That's a pretty clear bar for making something a different faith, that and communion.

 

[ATLASME]

We are talking about which churches are in communion with each other here, right? So do you have sources of the Armenian church excommunicating the Coptic church, or either one entering communion with the Catholic church, that kind of thing.

Communion doesn't really even require churches to be in regular contact: I'd say that the Maronites were in communion with the rest of the Latin church even when they were out of contact with them for example.

Do you have evidence of different Miaphysite churches killing each other over differences in their faith? Because at the moment, that's the situation inside of "Calvinism" alone. That's a pretty clear bar for making something a different faith, that and communion.

So need to kill each other to count as different faiths now? That's a grim benchmark. Are we measuring theological divergence by body count?"
The fact that Miaphysite churches haven’t historically murdered each other en masse over fine doctrinal disagreements might actually be a point in their favor — not evidence that they are the same in every respect. Violence doesn’t define religious identity. Otherwise, every peaceful denomination would just count as one big church.
Do you mean the Eucharist? If so, then I misunderstood you?In this context, yes, of course they did not recognize it.

 

[Ispil]

Right now the game seems to think that communion matters more than rite, yet mechanics like conversion don't really align with that at all. Like... you don't need to convert someone to a different communion if the rite's the same. The fundamental distinction between whether two pops should be a different faith should be whether or not they see the other religious practice as foreign and distinct from their own.

So I suggested breaking things up along lines of rite, which also includes the divisions you suggested here.

 

[Stami]

Of course, a Western person knows better than me — someone who actually practices this

Imagine, a Western person saying something like this...

"Of course, a Muslim/African/Chinese person knows better than me - someone who actually practices this"

Cancel culture would never allow it.

 

[Big_birdy]

Cancel culture would never allow it.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I doubt that cancel culture even exists to any major degree. I can't come up with any example of cancel culture that wasn't, in reality, an allegation of serious crimes

 

[AntarcticRanger]

So need to kill each other to count as different faiths now? That's a grim benchmark. Are we measuring theological divergence by body count?"
The fact that Miaphysite churches haven’t historically murdered each other en masse over fine doctrinal disagreements might actually be a point in their favor — not evidence that they are the same in every respect. Violence doesn’t define religious identity. Otherwise, every peaceful denomination would just count as one big church.

The bar for different faiths should be a lot lower than murder, yes, I'm just pointing out that contrary to what you have said the Protestant faiths are far more of a amalgamation of different faiths than the Miaphysite ones are. Paradox is being consistent with their choice to group all of these churches under Miaphysite, this isn't a isolated instance and in fact is less severe than the three Protestant faiths or Shiite for that matter.

Do you mean the Eucharist? If so, then I misunderstood you?In this context, yes, of course they did not recognize it.

I mean this when talking about communion. Most continental European Protestants entered into communion with one another in the 20th century for example.

 

[J_Master]

So need to kill each other to count as different faiths now? That's a grim benchmark. Are we measuring theological divergence by body count?"
The fact that Miaphysite churches haven’t historically murdered each other en masse over fine doctrinal disagreements might actually be a point in their favor — not evidence that they are the same in every respect. Violence doesn’t define religious identity. Otherwise, every peaceful denomination would just count as one big church.
Do you mean the Eucharist? If so, then I misunderstood you?In this context, yes, of course they did not recognize it.

It's being pointed out as serious theological differences (because that's why they're fighting) not preventing something being represented as a single in game religion. These kinds of serious theological differences do not exist for what's grouped together as Miaphasite. These Oriental Orthodox churches aren't being singled out, they're represented the exact same as other Christian religions in game. The different cultural elements of worship and autocephaly (to borrow the Eastern Orthodox term) are accounted for in mechanics that do not require a difference between the religion of pops under the "communion decides religion" mechanic. If they did, the Catholic religion would be wrong too as it doesn't show the various non-Roman rites that are in use by the Roman Church, not to mention the Eastern churches in communion with Rome who maintain their own Patriarch or Catholicos.

 

[theowovsk]

Christianism in EU5 is based upon theology. Geographical and cultural differences are assumed, it is not disrespectful to group miaphysite groups as one religion.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

I will say OP, as someone that wants more Protestant faiths to better reflect my own faith, I'm not against the idea to add more Oriental Orthodox faiths. You just haven't presented anything that would change the devs minds, I mean I am pretty sure that splitting Miaphasite up was brought up a lot in the relevant Tinto talk. this isn't new ground.

 

[ATLASME]

The bar for different faiths should be a lot lower than murder, yes, I'm just pointing out that contrary to what you have said the Protestant faiths are far more of a amalgamation of different faiths than the Miaphysite ones are. Paradox is being consistent with their choice to group all of these churches under Miaphysite, this isn't a isolated instance and in fact is less severe than the three Protestant faiths or Shiite for that matter.

I mean this when talking about communion. Most continental European Protestants entered into communion with one another in the 20th century for example.

Is that a reason to treat the most ancient living churches with contempt?The head of the Coptic Church bears the title 'Pope', and the Armenian Church is led by the Catholicos.

I will say OP, as someone that wants more Protestant faiths to better reflect my own faith, I'm not against the idea to add more Oriental Orthodox faiths. You just haven't presented anything that would change the devs minds, I mean I am pretty sure that splitting Miaphasite up was brought up a lot in the relevant Tinto talk. this isn't new ground.

So, because you were denied justice, no one else should be allowed to seek it for the Middle East?Let me reveal a harsh truth: the Middle East is not made up of followers of Islam alone .I was wrong when I talked about CK3 (I confused it with CK2) — in CK3 they actually did it right and separated the Oriental Orthodox Churches. But in EU4, not only did they name the entire religion "Coptic," but when playing as the Copts, I'm supposed to care about a holy site of another church (Etchmiadzin).

Christianism in EU5 is based upon theology. Geographical and cultural differences are assumed, it is not disrespectful to group miaphysite groups as one religion.

It’s not for you to decide — you don’t live here, and you don’t practice this faith .These churches do not form a single unified organization like the Greek Orthodox or the Catholics.Both the Orthodox and the Catholics engage with each of these churches individually and on equal footing — not as if they were members of a single unified organization.All I want is fairness in the representation of Middle Eastern Christians.